Do you forgive the Colts?

[drdelaware]

SB 5 is ours, not Indy's. That'd be like us trying to claim the Cleveland Browns' NFL championships of the 1960's.

The Super Bowl V trophy (recomissioned) is in Baltimore at the Sports Legends at Camden Yards. I saw it Super Bowl weekend. So yes it is "ours".

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[Mista T]

I don't want to hear the argument about "NFL Championships," if you have to start arguing about accomplishments made over 50 years ago, you know there's something wrong with your franchise. With all of the realignments, contractions, and expansions, I think it's easier to just stick to Super Bowl wins/appearances for the sake of arguments and comparisons.

Whoa! Are you saying our Colts Championships wins in 1958 & 1959 don't count because those games weren't technically called "Super Bowls"? Note that every pro team in the US belonged to the NFL as that time, and the players were arguably tougher. There is no logic for excluding those championships. As if there were no NFL before 1966. Moreover, the 1958 game a.k.a. the "Greatest Game Ever Played" put the NFL on the map, which, at that time, trailed MLB, horse racing, and NCAA football in national popularity. No post 1966 Super Bowl has had as much impact as the 1958 game which you suggest ignoring.

And fuck the Steelers, who had no pre-SB era championships. They, and the DC Redskins, were the worst run franchises in the post-war era, up to the mid-late 60s. Steelers fans will talk about their 6 rings (and conveniently neglect their 2 SB losses), but seem to forget having no winning teams their first 30 years.


:T2:

[Fcowher]

Whom to forgive is really tough, I was 13 when the Colts left and remember my mother crying while watching the news, I really thought the State Troopers would just stop them on I70. My whole family relished their Colt memories, Grandparents often telling me the story of the party atmosphere on the train ride home in 1958 from NY. The home Title game in 1959, my family at the drop of a hat breaking into a rousing rendition of the fight song at virtually every holiday, on cruises, at the beach, in a restaurant just wherever.
So I forgive the people of Indy, they seem to be good folks, the current players especially since they have many Raven connections. I do not forgive Taglibue, his museum comment, his rigged expansion derby forcing a team on a Jacksonville ownership group that wanted to drop out of the process. I dont forgive Bill Tugnutt, the former mayor of Indy and a native Marylander who now lives in Chevy Chase. I will never forgive the drunk turd Irsay, may he rot in eternal torment. But all of this dislike aside, I really love the Ravens more than anything else! So in the end it all turned out ok.

[trailhiker85]

Whoa! Are you saying our Colts Championships wins in 1958 & 59 don't count bcause those games weren't technically called "Super Bowls"? Note that every pro team in the US belonged to the NFL as that time, and the players were arguably tougher. There is no logic for excluding those championships. As if there were no NFL before 1966.

Exactly. The idea that "it's easier to stick to Super Bowl wins/appearances for the sake of arguments and comparisons" might seem logical at first glance, but even that fails to take into account all the expansions/re-alignments that have taken place SINCE the beginning of the Super Bowl era. The league is very different than it was during the early years of the Super Bowl era.

I think there's a bit of an "apples and oranges" problem under most any of these comparison scenarios. In any case, I don't want to take anything away from the great teams & players of the 50's and 60's who won hard-fought championships in an era of small rosters, low pay, and almost non-existent sports medicine.

[DeputyDawg]

I remember the whole debacle of Mayor Shaeffer and Drunken Irsay, and although I held a disdain for Irsay, Shaeffer got on tv and called him a drunk.
That really added gasoline to the fire.
I'll always feel connected to the horseshoe, but the team they got was a terrible team, and I am a total Ravens fan since 1996.
Johnny U wouldn't recognize the Indy Colts as his team, and neither do I.
It was Irsay that made the decision to leave, not the players.
We got the better deal in the end, Super Bowl XXXV, and SB XLVII. Nothing to forgive or miss about them !!

[RavenScallywag]

Thanks for the link to the Colts board...gives you a window into their side of the debate.

One thing I noticed, which explains a bit better why we did get SB 5 trophy:

When they won SB5, they weren't owned by the Irsay family. Carroll Rosenbloom owned them at that time. Irsay bought the Rams and traded franchises in 1972.

If Irsay had owned the team when SB 5 was won, I guarantee you, he wouldn't have let us keep the trophy (and yes, it's a replica, because Rosenbloom wouldn't give Art the trophy, so the NFL made him a replica to keep everyone happy).

Yeah, I get that "it's Baltimore's", but in the eyes of the NFL, it's not. It's "The Colts". Just goes back to the idea of returning the records. I think at this point, it'd be nice to make a clean break and return the records before 1984 to the "Baltimore Football franchise", and make it like Cleveland did, where the Browns were basically deactivated from 1996-1999, so the Baltimore Colts would've "deactivated" in 1984, meanwhile the Indianapolis Colts were created in 1984, and then in 1996, the Baltimore franchise was "Re-activated" with the new name and colors.

One more thing...I lol at the guy on their board that says "We've watched SB 5, so it IS our championship"

Hey, I watched SB41, so can I claim that as the Baltimore championship? That's basically the same knowledge...I watched the game once that a team with the same colors and name was involved in, so I'm entitled to say we deserve it!

[lobachevsky]

@scottieb: By now it's traditional that LA team names should have nothing whatsoever to do with the city (Angels being the one exception), so I look forward to the LA Jags or Vikes some day soon.

And as for this--

[The Colts] are the Atlanta Braves of the NFL.

Bingo: The Atlanta Braves, that used to be the Milwaulkee Braves (that used to be the Boston Braves)... :D

[RavenScallywag]

@scottieb: By now it's traditional that LA team names should have nothing whatsoever to do with the city (Angels being the one exception), so I look forward to the LA Jags or Vikes some day soon.

And as for this--Bingo: The Atlanta Braves, that used to be the Milwaulkee Braves (that used to be the Boston Braves)... :D

I think the trend nowadays is to leave the colors and name behind, at least. Look at the Oklahoma City Thunder. They kept the SuperSonics records and "memorabilia", but they left Seattle the name and colors.

Which is tough, because we pretty much want the opposite right now (for the most part)

From the NFL side...Houston wasn't able to use Oilers though...

The name "Houston Oilers" was unavailable to the expansion team, as that name was still owned by the Tennessee Titans, whose owner Bud Adams had retired the name from use in 1999.

From the Texans wiki page

[bacchys]

Had Irsay done the right thing and left the name, colours, and history in Baltimore, I wouldn't hate that franchise today.

Professional sports teams work to vest the community in which they play in the team. That certainly happened here in Baltimore. There were diehard fans who planned their lives around the Colts. The scenes from The Diner weren't just fiction.

That investment was never and has never been honoured by the NFL or the legal system. That was and is wrong. Modell may not have intended to honour it when he left Cleveland, but he ultimately did. The Browns may be a poorly run team and all that, but no Cleveland fan is ever going to have to watch the Browns enter the field from the visitors' locker room.

[alienrace]

I wasn't originally from the Baltimore area, moved here from Spokane in the early 70's. I was young and didn't really care much yet about football, other than playing it in the yard with my friends and knocking out all of my baby teeth doing it. My dad was a huge Colts fan though(being originally from Baltimore), and so were my cousins who were all a few years older than I was and lived in the area their whole lives. So eventually after a few years of me being a fan of the Cowboys and Raiders, I started loving the Colts by the late 70's, just long enough to feel like my heart was being ripped out when they moved.

I really wasn't a fan of any team after that. It was probably a different team each year I think. When the Ravens got here, I was on board, but my interest in football had waned a bit and wasn't as strong as my interest in guitars, women and booze. When we got Jim Harbaugh in 98, and that defense started shoring up, I really started feeling the love though, and by 99, I was bleeding me some purple in earnest, not just because they were the home team and I felt I should be. I genuinely liked the organization and the people involved, and the players we had. When we won the Super Bowl in the 2000 season, I was definitely over the Colts.

My father took a bit longer, but he's over them now too, and a huge Ravens fan.

[drdelaware]

Had Irsay done the right thing and left the name, colours, and history in Baltimore, I wouldn't hate that franchise today.

That's how I feel.

I consider the Indy Colts a separate franchise anyway though. Why any other city would want stolen goods is beyond me. Create your own identity. The fact that Johnny Unitas, Lenny Moore and so many Colts legends stuck with the city of Baltimore and embraced the Ravens is all I will ever need to know.

[SuggsKill]

I am too young to care about that, but I am happy to say that I've witnessed 2 Ravens' SuperBowls.