For us young guys: compare Bert Jones to Joe Flacco

Bert Jones could throw the ball on a rope better than anyone in his era. I think his accuracy was better than Joe's. Bert wasn't as bigJ or as durable as Joe. Pretty athletic but didn't get outside of the pocket much. Flacco could throw the ball on the move better than Jones. I think he could also improvise better than Jones. Bert Jones prior to his injury had more weapons than Flacco had. As receivers he had a deep threat in Roger Carr, intermediate threat in Glen Doughty. He also had Ray Chester as a tight end. Lydell Mitchell as a halfback wasn't durable or flashy but he would get you needed yards. Also Colts had a good offensive line so he didn't have to run around much and usually had a clean pocket. They had George Kunz at tackle and Ron Pratt as guard. Both were all pro's. Don't recall the other guys.

Like someone said earlier Jones much more vocal than Flacco but despite having more weapons wasn't asked to do as much as Joe. That's how we lost to the Raiders. Colts sat on the bal.. 6 straight runs to Mitchell and had we got a first down would have kept the ball from Ken Stabler. Joe definitely won more big games than Bert Jones at a younger age.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sarcasticfury

Was he?

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Way better.

Bellicheat said Bert had the strongest arm he ever saw and living in Annapolis
I'm assuming he saw Unitas play.

No comparison for Flacco and far more consistent. It's a shame Bert
didn't play for a team like the Ravens but for the Irsays and even with
those teams he got them into the POs.

As far as durability Joe got his arm crushed by a pass rusher but didn't
miss much time before that. Marchibroada ruined him bringing him back
too early but he played.

I saw him warming up on the side lines and you could see the pain
in his face when he threw. He was never the same after that but
that was some hit on him. It was the same type hit as on Unitas' arm
in 68 pre-season game that cost us SB 3 because John missed the
entire regular season. He was ready by the SB but Shula started
Earl instead and it cost us the trophy.

Most coaches would have gone conservative. How many times have we
seen that here with CAM and others.

The lead kept flip flopping the entire game. OAK took
the lead first and gave it up. Colts led at halftime. OAK came back.
Game then went into double OT and is currently 5th longest game in
history.

Colts Defense gave up 37 points in the end while Bert led Colts to
31 points. It was the defense that lost the game giving up all
those points.

They couldn't stop Stabler especially
on the ghost to post play at the end. Stan White forgot to pick up the
TE Dave Casper who made a great over the shoulder catch for the winning TD.
They still would have won on the next play with a FG as they were close
enough but Madden wanted a TD there. His d-coord noticed Colts DBs playing
too close and called for the post play knowing their HOF Casper could beat
them. He did with a great catch.


Madden said it was one of his favorite games and had everything, offense
defense, special teams long rreturns for TDs on special teams but the
Cokts defense lost it.

Colts still should have won and that was our SB. Irsay would have won his
first trophy in Baltimore. That's one reason why SB 35 was so sweet. Baltimore
got a measure of revenge beating OAK in their house abeit with a new team and
Goose knocked out their QB's arm on a monstrous hit and was fined $10,000.

We finally got out SB trophy. Al Davis was pissed thinking he was going to
SB 35.

One other thing, don't forget Bert didint have the Brady
rule protecting him.

Heres a recap of that OAK PO game in 77. It was definitely a flip flop
game, the kind that causes heart attacks on fans.

FROM WIKI:


The first half was mostly a defensive struggle. Oakland scored first on a 30-yard run by Clarence Davis. Baltimore returned with two second quarter scores, a 62-yard Bruce Laird interception return for a touchdown and a 36-yard field goal by Toni Linhart. The halftime score was 10-7 in favor of Baltimore.
The second half began with a scoring flurry. Dave Casper scored on an 8-yard touchdown reception on Oakland's first drive of the half. Marshall Johnson of the Colts then returned the ensuing kickoff 87 yards for a matching touchdown. Ted Hendricks blocked a third-quarter Baltimore punt, setting up a 10-yard Stabler-to-Casper touchdown pass, which made the score 21-17 in favor of the Raiders.
The fourth quarter saw impressive comebacks by both teams. Ron Lee scored on a 1-yard fourth down plunge for Baltimore, making the score 24-21 in favor of Baltimore. Oakland returned with a long drive culminating in a 1-yard Pete Banaszak run for a touchdown, making the score 28-24 in favor of Oakland. Baltimore returned with a 13-yard Lee run that left them with a 31-28 lead with just over 2 minutes to go, setting up the memorable play for Casper.
On third and long, with less than one minute on the clock, Raider head coach John Madden called for a time out. As Madden excitedly went over the next play on the sidelines with his quarterback, Stabler calmly looked at the frenzied Baltimore crowd and remarked "the fans are sure getting their money's worth today."[3] Offensive coordinator Tom Flores called for a pass designed to go to one of the two wide receivers running "in" patterns, but told Stabler to "take a peek at the Ghost to the post", referring to a deep pattern by Casper down the field and then angling to the goal post. On NFL's Greatest Games, Madden explained Casper's job on the play was normally to draw away the opposing team's safeties so the receivers could make a catch, but Flores had noticed the safeties had been playing closer to the line of scrimmage than usual, which is what prompted Flores to tell Stabler to look for Casper downfield. Casper himself claimed that although it was one of the team's most effective plays, he didn't recall ever catching a pass on it all season.
In what football fans now refer to as "The Ghost to the Post", Casper ran a deep post pattern, and Stabler threw a high, arching pass that looked well over thrown and behind Casper. It was Casper's memorable change of direction, chase, and athletic over-the-head catch that became the signature moment for the game. Casper went down at the 14-yard line, setting up an Errol Mann field goal that tied the game and sent the game to overtime.
Just 43 seconds into the second overtime, Stabler hit Casper on another 10-yard touchdown pass that ended what was then the third-longest game in NFL history 37-31.

Bert was the greatest QB that never was. His NFL player of the year is under estimated. He had 8 interceptions, 6 of which bounced off of his receivers. That year his TE Raymond Chester complained he threw too hard, and he threw ropes at yardage comparable to the best. I love Joe and Johnny, but he was the most talented QB that I ever saw. Could he play today? He was 6'3' 210lbs with an arm you compare with anyone, and he ran like the wind willingly making the tackler pay, maybe to his detriment. But he was a football player. The colts were really bad but he carried them into the playoffs on his back like no other QB I have ever seen.

At the time we were going through the Irskay dismantling of the Colts, and yet Bert willed the team into the playoffs. It's not a fair comparison. Joe is steady and reliable, Bert was spectacular.

I concede to Montanta as the GOAT, but Bert was the best athlete at QB I've seen all time.

I was at the Oakland playoff game AF alludes to. Even posted about the shitty seats I sat in the end zone watching Casper make that incredible catch running right at me. Great game.

I watched the ghost to the post from the end zone with him running straight at me. Casper looked over one shoulder, then the other, finally catching the ball straight over his head. It was the football equivalent in my mind to painting the Mona Lisa. It was a dagger in my heart yet I admired it.

Yea, I was going to mention that Ray Chester dropped some balls and I
wondered if Bert threw too hard. I've posted here that Joe might be throwing
too hard but get shot down. I'm still not sure but it seems like he does.
Bert was just more consistent.

Bert wouldn't have missed Torrey as he ran past his man in NE especially
if that had been Roger Carr he was throwing to. He ran like a deer.


Montana was on a better championship team than Bert and had much
better weapons but threw in the WCO. He didn't throw the bombs that
Bert threw to Roger Car or Unitas threw to Ray Berry and Lenny Moore.

Bert was vocal and caused some contention wearing a big cowboy belt
buckle that said REDNECK on it.

He was giving an interview on the radio after the loss and a drunken Irsay
busted in the middle cussing him out good while on the air. Bert and the
interviewer were petrified. Bert told Elway about all the stories with Irsay
and he just wasnt coming here anyway but Bert contributed to keeping him
out of Bmore. When Eric Dickerson went to Indy he just didn't believe the
stories about Irsay. He found out soon enough-lol.

But when Marchibroda was offered the Colts job in Indy Bert was happy
for him even though he was back with the Irsays so go figure.

Talk about vocal, Bert was interviewed once by Anita Marks over the phone
and he was kind of patronizing to her and women's football, certainly not
respecting her. Finally, she said I was a pro QB too Bert Jones. He just
laughed his ass off and said
he was leaving. She said, we're not done yet. He said no woman tells me
what to do except my wife and he hung up.

That was good old Bert.

Joe is no where the leader that Bert was.

There was a big dispute between Coach Marchibroda and GM Joe Thomas who
wanted to fire him. He was the one who hired him but they were at each other's
throats. Irsay had them both on his huge Yacht called THE MIGHTY I -lol - in
Lake Michigan for a meeting and he said it took everything he could to keep
them from throwing each other off the boat-lol.

Marcibroda was pissed that Thomas traded Mike Curtis for nothing plus
others also including Ted Hendricks for nothing who ended up in the HOF as a
Raider not a Colt. March wanted a bigger say in player personnel decisions.

Finally, Irsay sided with Machibroda when Bert led the team in a revolt and the
entire team threatened to quit if Marchibroda was fired. Can you see Joe leading
like that?

The Colts gave everyone the lesson about drafting the BAA. Thomas passed
on drafting Walter Petyon and took a lineman because they had Lydell Mitchell
a good back. Of course Peyton ony became one of the greatest ever and the
Colts passed on him.

Ernie Acorsi said he got his masters degree on the draft with that one

LOL - REMEMBERING THE COLTS REVOLT

I mean, can you see Joe calling Goody and saying get your butt down here
because there might not be a game Sunday . Talk about leadership. :laugh:

You young guys just don't know what we went thru.

TRAINING CAMP SCENE:


"Irsay came into our dressing room, screaming and cursing," recalled star running back Lydell Mitchell, who owns a bakery firm with former Pittsburgh Steeler and fellow Penn State alumnus Franco Harris. "He had face-to-face confrontations with me, Ray Chester and Bert Jones. He singled out a couple of guys and told [safety] Ray Oldham to stand in a corner.

"True, we played terribly, but Mr. Irsay didn't realize we kept our offense as basic as possible. We weren't going to show all our tricks when it didn't count. He just overreacted."

Jones was less diplomatic. "I didn't know if Irsay was talking, or letting his whiskey have a chance," he said.





BERT CALLS THE COMISH.

"I said, `Pete, you'd better get your rear end down here or you might have big trouble. We might not play in New England on Sunday,' " Jones said. "I heard this big gasp and then Rozelle kind of laughed nervously and asked, `Are you serious, Bert?'

"I told him I was dead serious. Rozelle said, `Bert, don't do anything irrational. I'll see what I can do.' "

No one is sure what role Rozelle may have played in restoring order, but for three tumultuous days in September, there was serious concern whether the Colts would start the 1976 season.





http://articles.baltimoresun.com/200...-colts-rozelle

Classic NFL films tape of Bert Jones. Includes Chuck Thompson and Vince Bagli describing Bert Jones.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Hc23_J5rOU

Classic NFL films often has the Ghost to Post game on TV. Check
out the schedule. YOu won't want to miss it.

Scott Garceau was MC at Nest 1's scholarship banquet
where we gave thousands in scholarship money to
Harford County football players.

He opened up once saying to Bruce Laird standing next
to him that I saw that game last night and the last thing
you see on the ghost to post play is you trailing Casper
into the end zone.

Laird said wait a min. I had my man covered on the other side
and went over there to help them out when the line
backer forgot to pick Casper up.

After the meeting I asked if Stan White was the guy who
forgot to pick up the linebacker and Bruce laughed and
said yea.

I saw the game and no where do you see White in
the picture. In fairness to Laird, they were throwing
to the other side and away from him.

They call it the ghost to post play because most teams
call it a post play. Shannan Sharpe beat that OAK team
mentioned above on it taking a 3 yard pass from Dilfer
and running 77 yards to the goal post for a TD. He
also scored on the same play vs Tenn before that.

But OAKs linebacker was Dave Casper who made the HOF.
His nick name was
the ghost after CASPER THE FRIENDLY GHOST cartoon
series. So when Madden put the play in the book he
called it the ghost to post play.

I'm at work, and don't have the list in front of me, but I recently compiled a list of the 10 most underrated retired QBs of the last 50 years.

Ken Anderson is #1. Bert Jones is somewhere in the 5 to 7 range I believe. The sad part is that, if you ask 100 people walking down the street of any NFL city (other than Baltimore)who claim to be football fans, 95 of them will never have heard of Bert Jones. Yet, probably most of them will have heard of Terry Bradshaw, and everything I've read/analyzed on the two has said that Jones had a skill set that dwarfed that of Bradshaw.

I'd still take Flacco because I tend to be the type that prefers steady consistency over short burst of brilliance.

I have a patient who is an avid football fan, especially the Colts. He was at the '58 and '59 Championship games with his father as a child, had season tickets to the Colts until they left and got season tickets with the Stallions. We discuss football on a regular basis when he is in my office. He disagrees with the assessment of Bert Jones being better than Joe Flacco. He says that Jones had physical skills, but he wasn't as good as Joe Flacco, and he isn't a Flacco fan. He says the main thing that makes him better is that he wins. He points to guys like Phillip Rivers who have physical gifts, and throws for 4-5K yards every year, but he can't win big games consistently. When he was younger, winning is all that counted. All these stats meant nothing.

The other thing he said about Jones is that his head wasn't the best. He had a chance to learn from Johnny Unitas when Unitas retired he came back and Jones said he didn't need John to teach him anything. Dan Fouts gave John Unitas a bunch of credit in his HOF speech. He said he wouldn't have been there if it wasn't for John Unitas.