The Giants lost to the Bengals, the 49ers to the Rams, and the Steelers to Oakland and Tennessee...

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Originally Posted by lobachevsky

It just occurred to me--& I'd appreciate it if the usual subspects like you & Cap'n Sliver would chime in on the subject--that what really, really, really pisses Ravens fans off about Harbaugh's risk-avoidancce approach isn't that it's conservative, or boring. Helzbelz, if there's any fan base in the NFL that's used to that & OK with it it's right here--it won this team a frakkin' Super Bowl, dinnit?

The really, really annoying thing about Harbaughesque football is that it's timid.

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Hey man, I am all over the threads, I can only cover so much Harbaugh love.

There is a large portion, not all, but a large portion of fans mirror our head coach. Even at this point, so does the owner Steve Bisciotti.

Success in the NFL is often based off of wins. John has a lot. So many that he is safe in regards to what the owner wants. That chance, the glimmer of hope to maybe one day to win a Super Bowl. It does take a bit of luck aside from being good.

But being good, being really, really good, in football, in life, in business can be enough. In fact, it can make you very, very, rich.

But to be the best, the greatest, the one that stands above all others and can say, I am better than everyone else takes something more than being good. It demands more.

We do not have that in a head coach. He is from the tree of almost. Bo Schembechler or Andy Ried, take your pick. Winning it all is not his pedigree. Never has been, never will be.

I need not compare him to previous coaches or current coaches, I need only watch the flow of the game, the X's and O'x, the favorable player match-ups that are missed or squandered opportunities, be it 30 seconds at a half or the mismanagement of timeouts on foolish challenges. I get to watch a quarterback who has all the tools, be doubted in his contract year because of a superseding commitment to mediocrity in an offensive coordinator who is stuck in 1974.

But again, there has been great success. I attribute this to the PLAYERS. Our players are simply better than most. Ozzie Newsome is getting a lot of flak now, but I say it is unwarranted, talent wise we have it.

So being good based upon riding the talent of this team is what John Harbaugh's resume is. Pruple Kool-Aid drinking fans will call me the hater, which is fine. John Harbaugh had the great pleasure to step into a well stocked team and run it. Let's see how well that would go over in Buffalo or Cleveland.

Good head coaches win a lot of games. Great head coaches win Super Bowls, they don't lose home games to 3rd string quarterbacks by kneeling on the ball at the half.

Captain, we are on opposite ends of this debate. I don't necessarily consider myself a "Harbaugh lover". Two years ago (after his third season), I said that if he could not beat Pittsburgh, win division titles and garner home playoff games, he should be squarely on the hot-seat. He's done that and got the team to the precipice. In my mind, that earns him a few more years to see if he can finish the job. We can disagree on whether he has earned or should get that chance.

But when you say this..

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Originally Posted by Captain Silver

Good head coaches win a lot of games. Great head coaches win Super Bowls, they don't lose home games to 3rd string quarterbacks by kneeling on the ball at the half.

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It really undermines the other (good) points you were making. I mean, if that is how we are judging "great" coaches, then explain how Tomlin lost to Tim Tebow? Yes, I know, Tomlin has won a Super Bowl (some think he may have won 2 or more)...anyway, how does that "great" coach then turn around and lose to Tim Tebow?

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Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

Captain, we are on opposite ends of this debate. I don't necessarily consider myself a "Harbaugh lover". Two years ago (after his third season), I said that if he could not beat Pittsburgh, win division titles and garner home playoff games, he should be squarely on the hot-seat. He's done that and got the team to the precipice. In my mind, that earns him a few more years to see if he can finish the job. We can disagree on whether he has earned or should get that chance.

But when you say this..



It really undermines the other (good) points you were making. I mean, if that is how we are judging "great" coaches, then explain how Tomlin lost to Tim Tebow? Yes, I know, Tomlin has won a Super Bowl (some think he may have won 2 or more)...anyway, how does that "great" coach then turn around and lose to Tim Tebow?

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Tomlin didn't lose to Tim Tebow at home on a 16 home game winning streak.

It undermines nothing, I wrote, and if logic such as this prevails this is exactly why fans are satisfied with John. Thanks for proving my point

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Originally Posted by The Excellector

I don't give a who what, who those teams lost to.

Losing to Batch, in your own place, in a game that could have clinched the division, for a team of this caliber, is a disgrace. Inexcusable doesn't begin to describe how bad of a loss that is.

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There's no washing the stench from this one: a near-miss death blow to our arch rivals, stopping the home win streak vs. a carrer bench-jockey QB, etc., etc. But it was one loss. The Houston game was the only one in which we were manhandled. Both Pitts. and Philly were bitter disappointments that could have easily been wins instead of mostly self-inflicted one-score defeats (w/ an assist from repacemebt refs. in Philly). We keep up our end of the bargain and we should be OK even in these 4 tough games remaining. We're not great, but neither are we done!:alien:

Before I start, Cap'n, your new avatar is a relief to my senses--which is more a commentary on the hideousness of Bane than the aesthetic qualities of Dr House.

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Originally Posted by Captain Silver

Hey man, I am all over the threads, I can only cover so much Harbaugh love.

There is a large portion, not all, but a large portion of fans mirror our head coach. Even at this point, so does the owner Steve Bisciotti.

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Yeah, that last kinda concerns me too. Harbaugh seems to have sold him on the idea (or--scary thought--was it the other way around??) that the path to consistent success in the NFL is to play risk-avoiding football, capitalize on the opponents' mistakes, & crabcrawl your way into the postseason--& once there, who knows, you might just get hot &/or lucky & snatch a Lombardi. And maybe in the long view that's the high percentage play. But dammit, football is entertainment, & there's not much entertaining about a team that grimly grinds out wins against teams that shower them with gifts in the form of unforced mistakes & shows no spark of determination or creativity until it's close to (or is) too late. Seriously, have Ravens fans actually enjoyed them looking barely adequate in 7 of their 9 victories, & snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2 of their 3 losses?

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Good head coaches win a lot of games. Great head coaches win Super Bowls, they don't lose home games to 3rd string quarterbacks by kneeling on the ball at the half.

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The kind of thing that prompts me to wonder--for a team that supposedly has so much faith in themselves & each other, how much faith does Harbaugh have in them? Not enough to trust Flacco to throw over the middle, it seems. Not enough to let Rice (who has fumbled once all year) even take a handoff at the end of the first half last week. (As I pointed out elsewhere, R2 in his career has put the ball on the ground in less than 1% of his carries.)

FTR, I am not convinced that this team has superior talent--or rather, I think the evidence shows that the talent level is pretty ordinary in a number of key areas. It's not just with Flacco that they don't know what they have--e.g., they won't really know how bad the OL needs upgrading until & unless they shitcan Moeller & replace him with someone competent.

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Originally Posted by lobachevsky

But dammit, football is entertainment, & there's not much entertaining about a team that grimly grinds out wins against teams that shower them with gifts in the form of unforced mistakes & shows no spark of determination or creativity until it's close to (or is) too late. Seriously, have Ravens fans actually enjoyed them looking barely adequate in 7 of their 9 victories, & snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2 of their 3 losses?

FTR, I am not convinced that this team has superior talent--or rather, I think the evidence shows that the talent level is pretty ordinary in a number of key areas. It's not just with Flacco that they don't know what they have--e.g., they won't really know how bad the OL needs upgrading until & unless they shitcan Moeller & replace him with someone competent.

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Which is it? Are they a good team that is under-performing (or just barely performing) or an average team with 9 wins that is over-performing. It looks like you are working both sides of the street here....

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Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

I mean... I guess, but when something works and you know it works and you keep doing it, that's the job.

The job is also, when something is not working, find away to make it work or change it altogether. That's not or does not appear to be happening from what I see on TV, unless or until it's late in the game and it's too close for comfort or we're down and need to score NOW.

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Yeah, I think your in a little deeper than I am. What I was replying to was PB74 basically saying that this team only succeeds because of great plays by the players. Which is why I said if the players get the credit for the great things that happen than they need some of the blame for the bad things that happen.

I want Cam gone. I've wanted Cam gone since at least 2010.

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Originally Posted by lobachevsky

Before I start, Cap'n, your new avatar is a relief to my senses--which is more a commentary on the hideousness of Bane than the aesthetic qualities of Dr House.Yeah, that last kinda concerns me too. Harbaugh seems to have sold him on the idea (or--scary thought--was it the other way around??) that the path to consistent success in the NFL is to play risk-avoiding football, capitalize on the opponents' mistakes, & crabcrawl your way into the postseason--& once there, who knows, you might just get hot &/or lucky & snatch a Lombardi. And maybe in the long view that's the high percentage play. But dammit, football is entertainment, & there's not much entertaining about a team that grimly grinds out wins against teams that shower them with gifts in the form of unforced mistakes & shows no spark of determination or creativity until it's close to (or is) too late. Seriously, have Ravens fans actually enjoyed them looking barely adequate in 7 of their 9 victories, & snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in 2 of their 3 losses?

The kind of thing that prompts me to wonder--for a team that supposedly has so much faith in themselves & each other, how much faith does Harbaugh have in them? Not enough to trust Flacco to throw over the middle, it seems. Not enough to let Rice (who has fumbled once all year) even take a handoff at the end of the first half last week. (As I pointed out elsewhere, R2 in his career has put the ball on the ground in less than 1% of his carries.)

FTR, I am not convinced that this team has superior talent--or rather, I think the evidence shows that the talent level is pretty ordinary in a number of key areas. It's not just with Flacco that they don't know what they have--e.g., they won't really know how bad the OL needs upgrading until & unless they shitcan Moeller & replace him with someone competent.

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That wasn't Bane, that was me as Bane!

9-3 is all people see, and to tell the truth, you are what your record says you are as Bill Parcells said, yet the year isn't finished and I do not see how this team wins in the playoffs relying on sheer talent to overcome the likes of an Arian Foster, Peyton Manning, or a Tom Brady in their houses, I mean we used to be unbeatable at home for two years until the mighty Charlie Fucking Batch beat us.

Charlie Batch beat us. This is a window into the future as well as a glance back at the past where the Ravens were fortunate to win in San Diego. You know it, I know it, everyone in the world knows that Rice goes down 99% of the time before making a 4th and 29.

Good teams find a way to win. This is a great team, with great players. Unfortunately it is saddled with an unimaginative and stodgy coaching staff that would rather rock, scissors, paper their game plan rather than get up to date and see what the likes of the Packers, the Saints, or the Broncos do on offense. That or a dozen other teams. Eventually, the defense faulters and has to a degree. Injuries to Suggs and Webb have been huge, as was Ray Lewis's ill conceived notion of dropping 20lbs this off season.

John's faith in Joe, the team, or anything is irrelevant. He has a stodgy old game plan, and it works, it wins a lot of games, but it WILL NOT BRING A CHAMPIONSHIP TO BALTIMORE.

I disagree, I think this team is heaped with talent, I think the coaching has been inept from top to bottom. I am not alone in this. What differs is I want John Harbaugh's ass nailed to the wall along with Cam Cameron because he is ultimately responsible.

Dungy got shit canned for this EXACT SAME REASON.

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Originally Posted by Captain Silver

That wasn't Bane, that was me as Bane!

9-3 is all people see, and to tell the truth, you are what your record says you are as Bill Parcells said, yet the year isn't finished and I do not see how this team wins in the playoffs relying on sheer talent to overcome the likes of an Arian Foster, Peyton Manning, or a Tom Brady in their houses, I mean we used to be unbeatable at home for two years until the mighty Charlie Fucking Batch beat us.

Charlie Batch beat us. This is a window into the future as well as a glance back at the past where the Ravens were fortunate to win in San Diego. You know it, I know it, everyone in the world knows that Rice goes down 99% of the time before making a 4th and 29.

Good teams find a way to win. This is a great team, with great players. Unfortunately it is saddled with an unimaginative and stodgy coaching staff that would rather rock, scissors, paper their game plan rather than get up to date and see what the likes of the Packers, the Saints, or the Broncos do on offense. That or a dozen other teams. Eventually, the defense faulters and has to a degree. Injuries to Suggs and Webb have been huge, as was Ray Lewis's ill conceived notion of dropping 20lbs this off season.

John's faith in Joe, the team, or anything is irrelevant. He has a stodgy old game plan, and it works, it wins a lot of games, but it WILL NOT BRING A CHAMPIONSHIP TO BALTIMORE.

I disagree, I think this team is heaped with talent, I think the coaching has been inept from top to bottom. I am not alone in this. What differs is I want John Harbaugh's ass nailed to the wall along with Cam Cameron because he is ultimately responsible.

Dungy got shit canned for this EXACT SAME REASON.

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Wow, you really have lost touch with reality.

You want our game plans to be the same as the Packers, Saints, and Broncos. They have 3 of the top 5 QB's in the league. Do you really think Flacco is as talented as Rodgers, Brees, and Manning? Of course not, nor should anyone including coaches expect him to be. However, you want our team to have the same game plan as three teams that are BELOW us in the standings. Saints are all but eliminated in 2012, the Packers are beatable this year with a healthy Rodgers. The Broncos were one position away from being an elite team last year and that was QB, so they went out and got one of the best ever in Peyton Manning and yet they have the same record as us, and we have a chance to beat them at home and finish ahead of them in the standings.

You say we are no longer "unbeatable" at home because we lost to Charlie Batch. Let's get one thing straight, no team is "unbeatable" at home in the NFL. While teams naturally play better at home vs. on the road, all great teams lose games at home. We happened to have the longest home winning streak in the NFL. That is a credit to BOTH the players and the coaches, and also to a little bit of luck. That doesn't take away the fact that M&T Bank is one of the hardest places for opposing teams to win in the NFL. Yes, we lost to the Steelers when they had key injuries, but they are STILL the Steelers. Their coaches and players (yes, even backups) know this team inside and out. There is a reason 7 of the last 8 have been decided by 3 points or less, regardless of who is or isn't playing.

It was definitely a "bad" loss by definition as we were favored by 5 points, but is not a CATASTROPHIC loss as you and others are making it out to be. If we lost 34-10, then maybe I could understand panic, but come on man, get a grip!! We still have a stranglehold on the AFC North and will get a home playoff game, which doesn't come around very often. While John Harbaugh and company have their flaws, as do every other coach in the NFL, just look at their record in both the regular and postseason and tell me you wouldn't have taken that in a heartbeat when Brian Billick was fired. Would you rather have a team like the Jags or Chargers who get blacked out a majority of their home games because their team stinks and their fans could care less about showing up to support them?? It could be so much worse, and as fans, we have absolutely no control over the outcome. Enjoy this while it lasts, teams don't make the playoffs every single year, there will be a time when we have several losing seasons in a row. Who knows if Harbaugh, Flacco, and company win a Super Bowl, only time will tell, but at least they have given us a lot more to look forward to each and every week then we could have ever imagined after the 2007 season.

As I said in the first line, you have completely lost touch with reality, your expectations are way too high.

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Originally Posted by JohnBKistler

Which is it? Are they a good team that is under-performing (or just barely performing) or an average team with 9 wins that is over-performing. It looks like you are working both sides of the street here....

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Well, yes & no. (How's that for a definitive answer? ;) ) I'm shuffling ideas around trying to get a sense of what needs fixing on this team. (Like everyone except the few here who call fans who want better from this team "spoiled" and "shitty", I believe there are things that need fixing.)

Re talent: For years we've been told how great the Ravens' FO is, how well they draft & sign right-player-right-price FAs, how clever they are with the salary cap...OK, if that's the case, then the talent on the roster should be above average, shouldn't it?

And yet they struggle to win more often than not. Why? It could be they're not good fits for the schemes the coordinators put them in per (RavensQB's "square peg in round hole" graphic). It could be that they're poorly coached regarding the skills & techniques needed to play their positions at the NFL level. Or it could be that they're just not talented, & the FO whiffed when they were drafted or signed. Or a combination of all three.

Terrence Cody is a good example. The majority opinion was that he was a steal at pick 57 of the 2010 draft. He had a decent first 2 seasons here. This year he's been a disappointment--frequently out of position or pushed off the LoS, playing poorly enough that Kemo became the starter at NT even after he'd been out of football for a year. What's the problem?

Part of it may be that he dropped a lot of weight during the offseason in hopes of gaining quickness but which also makes it easier for an OLman to move him. Part of it may be that his technique is poor because he's always gotten by on size. Part of it may be that he doesn't have the ideal physique for a NT--tall & tending toward top-heavy--so he needs to develop excellent technique to keep blockers from gaining leverage. Maybe he's not being taught well, maybe he's uncoachable, maybe he wants to be a Ngata clone rather than a NT.

Kruger is another example. What were they thinking when they drafted him? Apparently that they could bulk him up to 280+ lbs. & make him into a DE. Didn't work, & he essentially lost a year and a half before they admitted it & sent him back to the LB corps.

So when someone identifies a player who isn't performing at an acceptable level, the question is what's the real cause? It might be because he just isn't talented enough (which reflects on the FO & its evaluation of him). But it also might be because he's being asked to do something that isn't his strength (which may reflect on the FO or the coaching philosophy or both), or the coaches haven't trained him properly to do it. Unless you know the cause, you can't really fix it, because you can't be sure the same problem won't keep coming back. And that's really what I'd like to know.

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Originally Posted by ravens1217

Wow, you really have lost touch with reality.

You want our game plans to be the same as the Packers, Saints, and Broncos. They have 3 of the top 5 QB's in the league. Do you really think Flacco is as talented as Rodgers, Brees, and Manning? Of course not, nor should anyone including coaches expect him to be. However, you want our team to have the same game plan as three teams that are BELOW us in the standings. Saints are all but eliminated in 2012, the Packers are beatable this year with a healthy Rodgers. The Broncos were one position away from being an elite team last year and that was QB, so they went out and got one of the best ever in Peyton Manning and yet they have the same record as us, and we have a chance to beat them at home and finish ahead of them in the standings.

You say we are no longer "unbeatable" at home because we lost to Charlie Batch. Let's get one thing straight, no team is "unbeatable" at home in the NFL. While teams naturally play better at home vs. on the road, all great teams lose games at home. We happened to have the longest home winning streak in the NFL. That is a credit to BOTH the players and the coaches, and also to a little bit of luck. That doesn't take away the fact that M&T Bank is one of the hardest places for opposing teams to win in the NFL. Yes, we lost to the Steelers when they had key injuries, but they are STILL the Steelers. Their coaches and players (yes, even backups) know this team inside and out. There is a reason 7 of the last 8 have been decided by 3 points or less, regardless of who is or isn't playing.

It was definitely a "bad" loss by definition as we were favored by 5 points, but is not a CATASTROPHIC loss as you and others are making it out to be. If we lost 34-10, then maybe I could understand panic, but come on man, get a grip!! We still have a stranglehold on the AFC North and will get a home playoff game, which doesn't come around very often. While John Harbaugh and company have their flaws, as do every other coach in the NFL, just look at their record in both the regular and postseason and tell me you wouldn't have taken that in a heartbeat when Brian Billick was fired. Would you rather have a team like the Jags or Chargers who get blacked out a majority of their home games because their team stinks and their fans could care less about showing up to support them?? It could be so much worse, and as fans, we have absolutely no control over the outcome. Enjoy this while it lasts, teams don't make the playoffs every single year, there will be a time when we have several losing seasons in a row. Who knows if Harbaugh, Flacco, and company win a Super Bowl, only time will tell, but at least they have given us a lot more to look forward to each and every week then we could have ever imagined after the 2007 season.

As I said in the first line, you have completely lost touch with reality, your expectations are way too high.

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I haven't lost touch with reality, it is you that accepts the Ravens lack of will. Folding up at half time with 30 seconds to go is the hallmark of this coaching staff. Little BITCHES that would rather protect a lead than dare to increase it because of what 'might' happen. That is the analogy I am using.

Would a Brees, or Manning led team simply quit with 30 seconds to go? HELL NO. This goes beyond the offenses the Saints, Packers, and Broncos run. The difference here is they go for the throat, us, shit we worry about not losing here. And do not try and use some Jedi mind trick about the Saints being done, it is their defense that is their undoing, not Brees and the offense, so sell your crap somewhere else.

As for the last game, no shit, any given Sunday. But with our 'stellar' game plan, we allowed Methuselah, I mean Batch to beat us. You slice it however you like, die hard Steeler fans predicted a horrific loss. NO EXCUSE. RAY RICE 12 carries? Sitting on the ball at the half? No dice, someone has to be held accountable for shitty planning, shitty and nonexistant adjustments, and even shittier game management. John Harbaugh - I think I'll challenge the Titanic was sunk by an ICEBERG.

It is catastrophic, it was putting the stake into the heart of Dracula and we didn't even hit a blood vessel. You don't think the rest of the MONSTERS in the NFL didn't take notice. Shit, the Manning brothers are on the phone to each other on how to shred us because the offense can't do shit. Eventually the defense will buckle. I would not be surprised if we lose to both the Giants and the Broncos who know that they and the rest of the NFL sees that a quarterback two minutes cold and destined for the morgue can beat us at home.

And here comes the most PATHETIC excuse ever:

"Would you rather have a team like the Jags or Chargers who get blacked out a majority of their home games because their team stinks and their fans could care less about showing up to support them?

Of course I wouldn't, but I want more. Just like the Buccaneers wanted long ago. They had success, they had wins, but they had nothing in terms of Super Bowls until they fired Dungy and hired Gruden.

And, as for bringing up the 2007 season, it was an injury marred season with shit for a quarterback as far as the NFL goes. Brady goes down, so do the Patriots, or any team really. Was Billick given that break after a 13-3 season the year before? No, some bullshit about losing the locker room and an owner's "GUT" feeling. He didn't have that "GUT" feeling when McNair was playing like a real QB and Rex Ryan wasn't sticking knives in Billick's back.

All you Kool-Aid drinkers want to give Harbaugh a pass and yet dismiss Brian Billick for having bad years with no decent QB like we have today. Brian Billick won a Super Bowl. Closest this clown we have as a head coach will ever get is talking about it while rubbing cream on Cam Cameron's ass because he does'n have balls like Billick to fire his friend.

Yeah, my expectations are high. Go ask any Patriot or Giant's fan if not winning a Super Bowl is acceptable. It isn't.

Chump fan's that accept winning regular season and getting thumped out of the playoffs only have one problem. Me and people like me that say this team has way too much in talent and not enough in brains as coaching goes to win it all.

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Originally Posted by Corey

Yeah, I think your in a little deeper than I am. What I was replying to was PB74 basically saying that this team only succeeds because of great plays by the players. Which is why I said if the players get the credit for the great things that happen than they need some of the blame for the bad things that happen.

I want Cam gone. I've wanted Cam gone since at least 2010.

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No, what I actually meant is that when the pressure is on, our coaches almost always rely on the players to make big plays INSTEAD of trying to fix whatever hasn't been working up to that point...y'know by ADJUSTING.

And please don't tell me that when Harbaugh is staring wide-eyed, almost as if he's in a trance or a stupor, while everything GRADUALLY begins to fall apart around him--I'm not talking about when there's a drastic momentum changing play that seems to come out of nowhere; I don't expect any coach to immediately adjust to the unexpected--but when there's an OBVIOUS AND EVIDENT PATTERN that points to an EVENTUAL AND PREDICTABLE OUTCOME, then yes, I expect a competent coach to: a) Notice and b) Intervene.

Can you honestly say that TIMELY & PROPER INTERVENTION is one of Harbaugh's strengths?

Like you, I wanted Cam gone in 2010 too, after that debacle in the playoffs against Pittsburgh were he had 3 possession WRs all running long deep routes while Joe was "protected" by a makeshift O-Line against the fiercest pass rush in the league.

And Harbaugh stood there on the sidelines blithely, seeing NOTHING WRONG WITH ANY OF THAT.