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  1. #133
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    What's new is that for the first time in their history they have a franchise QB that they are paying like a franchise QB, and have taken the first steps in finally fielding an offense that can carry its weight along with the defense. You say they're a team that's built their success through the draft? How many wide receivers have they drafted since they came into existence that have distinguished themselves? So really...that theory goes right out the window, doesn't it? Especially since we're talking about the wide receivers in this thread. To expect anyone to have faith in the drafted Ravens WRs, given the abysmal history, is just too much of a stretch at this point in time. Could it happen? Anything it possible. Is it likely? Not given the last 17 years worth of drafted WR failures.

    Now before all the "YOU ARE FORECASTING DOOM AND GLOOM" parrots emerge...I'm not saying the Ravens as a team will fail; or even that the offense as a whole will fail. This thread is only talking about the WRs, and I'm responding to this particular poster who stated that the Ravens have been successful building the team through the draft. The one exception to that is when it comes to drafting wide receivers; that's the ONLY thing I'm addressing in this post.
    That very QB that they are paying said money to is a key reason as to why one of those WRs finally panned out. That same WR that was only single covered by one team the entire season (Denver). How could you expect Ravens WRs to develop with the inaccurate QBs they've put on the field anyway? Joe Flacco is the most accurate QB they've had since Vinny. He is the exact type of QB that you try this with.

    Joe Flacco's presence is a key reason why people are concerned about the loss of Pitta and Boldin. Boldin's success has long been based upon accurate QBs who can compensate for his poor separation abilities, with high quality passes, in order to utilize his strong hands. The only year that Boldin was truly as dominant as he was this past postseason, without a QB of that caliber, was during his rookie season. The reality is that Boldin wouldn't have even been that dominant without the presence of the drafted WR Torrey Smith, who took on the double team and left Boldin to deal with Nicklebacks and Safeties.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  2. #134

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    That very QB that they are paying said money to is a key reason as to why one of those WRs finally panned out. That same WR that was only single covered by one team the entire season (Denver). How could you expect Ravens WRs to develop with the inaccurate QBs they've put on the field anyway? Joe Flacco is the most accurate QB they've had since Vinny. He is the exact type of QB that you try this with.

    Joe Flacco's presence is a key reason why people are concerned about the loss of Pitta and Boldin. Boldin's success has long been based upon accurate QBs who can compensate for his poor separation abilities, with high quality passes, in order to utilize his strong hands. The only year that Boldin was truly as dominant as he was this past postseason, without a QB of that caliber, was during his rookie season. The reality is that Boldin wouldn't have even been that dominant without the presence of the drafted WR Torrey Smith, who took on the double team and left Boldin to deal with Nicklebacks and Safeties.
    That's all well and good. And there isn't anyone here who respects and appreciates what Joe brings to the table more than I do. But to make a claim that the Ravens have had success drafting (which they most certainly have) and try to apply that to the WRs, even with Joe, is just too far of a stretch, IMO.

    I'll say this...if anyone can bring out the best in these guys, it's Joe. He's already proven that. But you can't get blood out of a turnip. And to bet the farm on these current WRs is just asking for trouble as far as I'm concerned.





  3. #135
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    That's all well and good. And there isn't anyone here who respects and appreciates what Joe brings to the table more than I do. But to make a claim that the Ravens have had success drafting (which they most certainly have) and try to apply that to the WRs, even with Joe, is just too far of a stretch, IMO.

    I'll say this...if anyone can bring out the best in these guys, it's Joe. He's already proven that. But you can't get blood out of a turnip. And to bet the farm on these current WRs is just asking for trouble as far as I'm concerned.
    You could have said the same thing about drafted Ravens QBs...until Joe. And Joe's a major reason why we aren't saying that about Torrey.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  4. #136

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    You could have said the same thing about drafted Ravens QBs...until Joe. And Joe's a major reason why we aren't saying that about Torrey.
    I HAVE said it about the QBs prior to Joe. ;)

    And while Joe helped in Torrey's development, he didn't provide Torrey with his talents. There's only so much that training and good QBs can provide; the rest has to be there. And to date, Torrey is IT for drafted WRs. So just let go of that part, and we've got no disagreement.

    On the positive side...

    the O-line is something to realistically project good things about. So is the running game. And so are some of the other players. As I've already stated, the one piece that's missing is a legit #2 WR. All in all, that's not too bad. By the same token, to pretend it's not an issue is just foolish.

    (And don't forget...I'm the ONLY other person here besides you who thinks, under the circumstances, that bringing in Randy Moss vs not bringing in Randy Moss is a good thing. I actually think he made more sense last year because of Cameron's schemes and the match between them and Randy's primary go route. But even now I think he adds something, for not a lot of money, that would help the team.)





  5. #137
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    It's been covered before by others but the idea that Ozzie "can't draft WRs" is total bunk. He had a couple of busts in Patrick Johnson and Travis Taylor, a solid, but unspectacular number 2 receiver in Clayton who put up decent numbers anytime he had an average or better qb, a potential superstar in Torrey, and a bunch of guys who were picked late and didn't pan out in our decidedly non-aggressive offensive system.

    He's 1 for 3 basically, and frankly it would be 2 for 3 if Clayton had been taken a round later.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron





  6. #138
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    I HAVE said it about the QBs prior to Joe. ;)

    And while Joe helped in Torrey's development, he didn't provide Torrey with his talents. There's only so much that training and good QBs can provide; the rest has to be there. And to date, Torrey is IT for drafted WRs. So just let go of that part, and we've got no disagreement.

    On the positive side...

    the O-line is something to realistically project good things about. So is the running game. And so are some of the other players. As I've already stated, the one piece that's missing is a legit #2 WR. All in all, that's not too bad. By the same token, to pretend it's not an issue is just foolish.
    With Boldin's inability to separate, he has struggled and will continue to struggle with less accurate QBs. I think we need to put more emphasis on the QB's role in developing the WR. Unless you are talking about a Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald type prospect, the QB's accuracy is very important. People who think that Boldin will have similar success in San Fransisco are going to be disappointed, because Kaepernick cannot make the accurate touch passes that Flacco and Warner made. He's not there yet.

    Joe didn't provide Torrey with his talents, but we didn't get to see those talents on display until he was running under Joe's beautifully thrown deep passes.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  7. #139

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    It's been covered before by others but the idea that Ozzie "can't draft WRs" is total bunk. He had a couple of busts in Patrick Johnson and Travis Taylor, a solid, but unspectacular number 2 receiver in Clayton who put up decent numbers anytime he had an average or better qb, a potential superstar in Torrey, and a bunch of guys who were picked late and didn't pan out in our decidedly non-aggressive offensive system.

    He's 1 for 3 basically, and frankly it would be 2 for 3 if Clayton had been taken a round later.
    1 for 3 or 2 for 3. Yeah. That's what this thread needed. Some comic relief.





  8. #140

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    With Boldin's inability to separate, he has struggled and will continue to struggle with less accurate QBs. I think we need to put more emphasis on the QB's role in developing the WR. Unless you are talking about a Calvin Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald type prospect, the QB's accuracy is very important. People who think that Boldin will have similar success in San Fransisco are going to be disappointed, because Kaepernick cannot make the accurate touch passes that Flacco and Warner made. He's not there yet.

    Joe didn't provide Torrey with his talents, but we didn't get to see those talents on display until he was running under Joe's beautifully thrown deep passes.
    Of course. But it still takes 2 to tango. Not 1.

    (And I'm on record as saying that Joe did more to make Boldin look great than the other way around, despite the heavy sentiment that it was the other way around. I even gave the example of Mason and Mason's success with Joe throwing those out passes, vs what happened when Sanchez was throwing them. It spelled the end of Mason's career.)





  9. #141
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Boldin had a great playoff run, just like a lot of Ravens players.

    However, the reality is that he didn't get separation and only found success matched up against 3's and Ss, catching Joe's extremely accurate passes.

    The idea that a young prospect, who can actually separate from his defender, making for an easier throw for Joe believe it or not, is not only feasible. It's plausible.

    Boldin's catches seemed extra clutch, because of the tight coverage. The reality is that there wasn't a chance of it not seeming that way, because coverage was always tight. That puts a strain on your QB. People liked to say that Joe lobbed it up to Boldin. Well......you don't get a chance to hit him open....
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  10. #142
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    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensRule21215 View Post
    Of course. But it still takes 2 to tango. Not 1.

    (And I'm on record as saying that Joe did more to make Boldin look great than the other way around, despite the heavy sentiment that it was the other way around. I even gave the example of Mason and Mason's success with Joe throwing those out passes, vs what happened when Sanchez was throwing them. It spelled the end of Mason's career.)
    If you're on record as saying that, why are you not confident in a WR taking Boldin's place, that can actually separate?
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  11. #143

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Boldin had a great playoff run, just like a lot of Ravens players.

    However, the reality is that he didn't get separation and only found success matched up against 3's and Ss, catching Joe's extremely accurate passes.

    The idea that a young prospect, who can actually separate from his defender, making for an easier throw for Joe believe it or not, is not only feasible. It's plausible.

    Boldin's catches seemed extra clutch, because of the tight coverage. The reality is that there wasn't a chance of it not seeming that way, because coverage was always tight. That puts a strain on your QB. People liked to say that Joe lobbed it up to Boldin. Well......you don't get a chance to hit him open....
    Do you remember Justin Harper? The guy got 5 yards separation routinely. And just as routinely, he dropped the balls right in his hands. That's NOT going to be rectified by the QB putting the ball right in his hands. So again...while I agree with the assessment of Boldin, and have stated the very same things myself, it does NOT automatically follow that the current group of WRs, including Reed, Doss, and others, are going to step in and fill the void. They've been in camp a week already, and not ONE of them has distinguished himself. No real surprise there.





  12. #144

    Re: The Foundation of the Passing Offense is still Intact.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    If you're on record as saying that, why are you not confident in a WR taking Boldin's place, that can actually separate?
    They have to do more than just separate to cut it in the NFL. (See "Justin Harper"). Did you NOT see Tandon Doss drop key passes right in his hands last year? What I expected was for the Ravens to replace Boldin with someone better, not rely on the WRs they had on hand.





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