One thing I never understood about fans critical of Joe Flacco.

**purple_city39** · 01-03-2018, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Money227

I think it's pretty clear that there is a confidence in Roethlisberger, Ryan and Rodgers being consistent enough to carry their teams through 16-game seasons that just isn't there with Flacco. Whether or not you agree with the Ravens' organization, it is what it is.

Well, of course there is confidence in them to carry their teams, they have the personnel to do it on offense. Let's not forget the Steelers had a similar "win with defense" approach for Ben's first few years. And his numbers were mediocre. Then, in 2006, the Steelers went and drafted Santonio Holmes in the first round to help their QB who had never cracked 4k passing yards in his first 3 years. And guess what? He still didn't in 06 or 07. In 08, they added another high pick WR, this time a second rounder named Limas Sweed. Ben couldn't make a star out of Sweed who eventually became a bust, and still didn't pass for 4k. C

They had zero reason to be confident in him being able to carry the team, especially since they won two superbowls on the back of the defense, but in 09 they STILL tried to give him weapons. Ben got a blazing young speedster in the 3rd round by the name of Mike Wallace to add to Holmes and Ward. The 3 combined for over three thousand yards and Ben FINALLY, in his 6th season, threw for over 4k yards. Amazing what having actual weapons can do for confidence and ability to carry a team. So yes, a team can actually try to put talent around a QB before said QB shows the ability to carry the team.

You either put your QB in a position to succeed or you don't. Ben didn't start playing on the level he's playing now UNTIL he got weapons. And realistically, if he couldn't force 10-20 passes a game to Brown, whether open or covered, the Steelers offense would have a whole different look to it. But he is in a historically defensive organization that learned to change with the times. If ours is waiting for Joe to carry the team with scraps that fell off the flea market table before they give him weapons, then the whole organization needs to be blown up and re-created from scratch.

**Laxdad24** · 01-03-2018, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Money227

They have every confidence in the world in Joe once they get into postseason play. It's the matter of getting there though. Other teams invest in the offensive side of the ball because they have confidence in their QB. That's their meal ticket to make it through a 16-game schedule. You don't spend a ton of resources surrounding an inconsistent QB with weapons. That's like tricking out a Nissan Versa.

Btw...I'm saying this is my opinion of what their rationale is.

I respect your opinion. Don’t agree with it but I do respect it.

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**The Wizard of OZ** · 01-03-2018, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by purple_city39

Well, of course there is confidence in them to carry their teams, they have the personnel to do it on offense. Let's not forget the Steelers had a similar "win with defense" approach for Ben's first few years. And his numbers were mediocre. Then, in 2006, the Steelers went and drafted Santonio Holmes in the first round to help their QB who had never cracked 4k passing yards in his first 3 years. And guess what? He still didn't in 06 or 07. In 08, they added another high pick WR, this time a second rounder named Limas Sweed. Ben couldn't make a star out of Sweed who eventually became a bust, and still didn't pass for 4k. C

They had zero reason to be confident in him being able to carry the team, especially since they won two superbowls on the back of the defense, but in 09 they STILL tried to give him weapons. Ben got a blazing young speedster in the 3rd round by the name of Mike Wallace to add to Holmes and Ward. The 3 combined for over three thousand yards and Ben FINALLY, in his 6th season, threw for over 4k yards. Amazing what having actual weapons can do for confidence and ability to carry a team. So yes, a team can actually try to put talent around a QB before said QB shows the ability to carry the team.

You either put your QB in a position to succeed or you don't. Ben didn't start playing on the level he's playing now UNTIL he got weapons. And realistically, if he couldn't force 10-20 passes a game to Brown, whether open or covered, the Steelers offense would have a whole different look to it. But he is in a historically defensive organization that learned to change with the times. If ours is waiting for Joe to carry the team with scraps that fell off the flea market table before they give him weapons, then the whole organization needs to be blown up and re-created from scratch.

And to be fair, they did WIN with defense too in 06 and 09. And lost another one to the Packers. They rode their defense for the most part, but did have weapons on offense, that they let go and replaced them. They changed their philosophy in between that time to. They moved from a heavy run team to more of a passing team EVEN with a terrible Offensive line and Ben still shined. How does that happen?

The same arguments are rehashed everyday. Ben had weapons but he had a bad Oline. Still shined. Because he's Ben. But I'm leaving this alone.

**Goode05** · 01-03-2018, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by purple_city39

Well, of course there is confidence in them to carry their teams, they have the personnel to do it on offense. Let's not forget the Steelers had a similar "win with defense" approach for Ben's first few years. And his numbers were mediocre. Then, in 2006, the Steelers went and drafted Santonio Holmes in the first round to help their QB who had never cracked 4k passing yards in his first 3 years. And guess what? He still didn't in 06 or 07. In 08, they added another high pick WR, this time a second rounder named Limas Sweed. Ben couldn't make a star out of Sweed who eventually became a bust, and still didn't pass for 4k. C

They had zero reason to be confident in him being able to carry the team, especially since they won two superbowls on the back of the defense, but in 09 they STILL tried to give him weapons. Ben got a blazing young speedster in the 3rd round by the name of Mike Wallace to add to Holmes and Ward. The 3 combined for over three thousand yards and Ben FINALLY, in his 6th season, threw for over 4k yards. Amazing what having actual weapons can do for confidence and ability to carry a team. So yes, a team can actually try to put talent around a QB before said QB shows the ability to carry the team.

You either put your QB in a position to succeed or you don't. Ben didn't start playing on the level he's playing now UNTIL he got weapons. And realistically, if he couldn't force 10-20 passes a game to Brown, whether open or covered, the Steelers offense would have a whole different look to it. But he is in a historically defensive organization that learned to change with the times. If ours is waiting for Joe to carry the team with scraps that fell off the flea market table before they give him weapons, then the whole organization needs to be blown up and re-created from scratch.

How does one qb get AB Wallace and E Sanders all at the same time. Oh they actually draft players for it

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**purple_city39** · 01-03-2018, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by The Wizard of OZ

And to be fair, they did WIN with defense too in 06 and 09. And lost another one to the Packers. They rode their defense for the most part, but did have weapons on offense, that they let go and replaced them. They changed their philosophy in between that time to. They moved from a heavy run team to more of a passing team EVEN with a terrible Offensive line and Ben still shined. How does that happen?

The same arguments are rehashed everyday. Ben had weapons but he had a bad Oline. Still shined. Because he's Ben. But I'm leaving this alone.

They definitely won those two superbowls with defense, no doubt. But even though they had a QB who hadn't thrown for even 4k yards for 5 seasons, they continued to invest into the offense and give him weapons. They even put focus on the run game to help (Better, Parker, Mendenhall, now Bell). They did work backwards though and do the o-line last.

I'm simply pointing out that you don't need to already have confidence in a QBs ability to carry a team to actually invest in that QB with good talent around him

**Jazz1988** · 01-03-2018, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by Goode05

Who has done more with less?

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Cam Newton in 2015 even though he had Greg Olsen.

**purple_city39** · 01-03-2018, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Goode05

How does one qb get AB Wallace and E Sanders all at the same time. Oh they actually draft players for it

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And then get AB, Bryant, and JuJu.......

In Ben's 14 seasons in the NFL, the Steelers have drafted a WR or TE in the first three rounds 10 times. This doesn't even include Bryant and Brown. In Flacco's 10 seasons, the Ravens have drafted a WR or TE in the first three rounds 4 times. One QB is set up to win, one QB is set up for failure

**HbgPARavenfan** · 01-03-2018, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by The Wizard of OZ

And to be fair, they did WIN with defense too in 06 and 09. And lost another one to the Packers. They rode their defense for the most part, but did have weapons on offense, that they let go and replaced them. They changed their philosophy in between that time to. They moved from a heavy run team to more of a passing team EVEN with a terrible Offensive line and Ben still shined. How does that happen?

The same arguments are rehashed everyday. Ben had weapons but he had a bad Oline. Still shined. Because he's Ben. But I'm leaving this alone.

Bens line has never been as bad as people portray. His sacks and his hits were a direct result of him hanging on to the ball and waiting for a big play. One of the biggest myths / lies in pro sports. Any other QB holds the ball for 4-6 seconds and they are killed for holding the ball... ben does it and its "Ben being ben"

**Money227** · 01-03-2018, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by HbgPARavenfan

Bens line has never been as bad as people portray. His sacks and his hits were a direct result of him hanging on to the ball and waiting for a big play. One of the biggest myths / lies in pro sports. Any other QB holds the ball for 4-6 seconds and they are killed for holding the ball... ben does it and its "Ben being ben"

His WRs have benefited greatly because of this.

**The Excellector** · 01-03-2018, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by usmccharles

I don't think your giving Torrey enough credit, he didn't have the best hands but he was a game changer and definitely a solid number 2. I think teams game planned for him more than they did Boldin because they don't want to get beat deep. Cant really game plan for a guy who catches everything in a 48 foot radius (Boldin)

I never went that far. Culex said great pieces. Torrey was not a great piece. Then, he said great collection. Overall, that was not a great collection. That collection of talent wasn't even top 10 in the league that year when you looked at the other collections of talent.

**The Excellector** · 01-03-2018, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by Money227

I think it's pretty clear that there is a confidence in Roethlisberger, Ryan and Rodgers being consistent enough to carry their teams through 16-game seasons that just isn't there with Flacco. Whether or not you agree with the Ravens' organization, it is what it is.

I don't think that's it at all, because if that were the case, they would not have signed him to the big deal and certainly would not have restructured it. Furthermore, more confidence in the QB to carry the team would translate to spending more money elsewhere, because you feel that QB doesn't need as much as around him. Hence, why they are confident in that QB's ability to "carry their teams", as you say.

**The Excellector** · 01-03-2018, 09:10 PM

For example, for years, the Ravens were so confident in Ray Lewis and Ed Reed, that they consistent put average-below average pieces beside them. Dawan Landry was probably the best Safety to play beside Ed Reed and that's saying something. They consistently put lesser pieces beside Reed, because they were confident in his ability to mask their deficiencies. Out of Hartwell, Ellerbe, Scott and McClain, Hartwell was the highest drafted guy beside Ray once they switched to a 3-4, and that was the third round. The other three were all undrafted.

The philosophy is clear, they want to win with defense and they want the offense to make 2-3 plays a game, while not turning the ball over and screwing it up for the defense. They believe that Flacco can accomplish that with trash around him.