Overpaying Flacco could sink the Ravens

**leachisabeast** · 12-06-2012, 12:09 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

Drew Brees?

Brees had a rating of over 100 in his third season (2004), and was in the top 10 in passing yards under the same OC, Flacco's highest rating was 93.5 which was ironically in his third season too. Brees was arguably elite under Cam in his last two years before his injury, then he went to NO and cemented his legacy. I can't see Joe doing that, even if he did go and play in a really decent offensive system.

EDIT: My mistake, he wasn't top 10 in yards, but 15th in passing yards. However he had the third highest QB rating in the league that year.

**Captain Silver** · 12-06-2012, 12:12 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Brees had a rating of over 100 in his third season, and was in the top 10 in passing yards under the same OC, Flacco's highest rating was 93.5 which was ironically in his third season too. Brees was arguably elite under Cam in his last two years before his injury, then he went to NO and cemented his legacy. I can't see Joe doing that, even if he did go and play in a really decent offensive system.

EDIT: My mistake, he wasn't top 10 in yards, but 15th in passing yards. However he had the third highest QB rating in the league that year.

I don't ever recall anyone calling Brees elite when he was a Charger.

**leachisabeast** · 12-06-2012, 12:16 AM

Originally Posted by Justlovemybirds

And you can say Roethlisberger

The Elite of Elites (Peyton and Tom mainly) have been doing it for 10+ years, outside of the them most of the great QB's developed into where they are.

Roethlisberger had a ring by his second season and had a 15-1 season in his rookie year. If we are going to measure Joe by the wins as many of the apologists do, we should do the same with Ben. Flacco has had good winning success but not as much as what Jen had.

Besides, Jen still had greater statistics early on his career than what Joe has ever had.

**leachisabeast** · 12-06-2012, 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

I don't ever recall anyone calling Brees elite when he was a Charger.

Well whatever, my point still stands that he was more efficient than what Joe has been early on in his career, under a very similar offense.

65.5 completion %, and a 104.8 QB rating is better than anything Joe has ever had under Cam.

**Captain Silver** · 12-06-2012, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Well whatever, my point still stands that he was more efficient than what Joe has been early on in his career, under a very similar offense.

65.5 completion %, and a 104.8 QB rating is better than anything Joe has ever had under Cam.

And yet he skyrocketed when away from Cam. But I think it is a legit comparison and will even give you the benefit of the doubt.

**leachisabeast** · 12-06-2012, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

And yet he skyrocketed when away from Cam. But I think it is a legit comparison and well even give you the benefit of the doubt.

And yet again, I'm not defending Cam in any way, he is terrible, I was just using it as a a testament if anything to how good Brees is that he could be that efficient under Cam. Joe would obviously be better under a more QB friendly OC, hey lets use Sean Payton as an example, but my argument was simply that I doubt Joe would be AS GOOD as an Aaron Rogers or a Tom Brady that's all. I see Joe on a similar level to Matt Shaubb, and there's nothing wrong with that at all. We just need the team to be more talented around him, which we don't have this season sadly, unlike seasons past.

**Corey** · 12-06-2012, 12:31 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Well whatever, my point still stands that he was more efficient than what Joe has been early on in his career, under a very similar offense.

65.5 completion %, and a 104.8 QB rating is better than anything Joe has ever had under Cam.

Leach stats are subjective. You know that. In Brees best year, the Oakland Raiders and Kansas City Chiefs ranked 30th and 31st in total defense that year. Think about that. A quarter of his schedule came against bottom 5 defenses in the NFL.

You can twist stats any you want. That is why they can not be relied on. The point is QB's do not reach their full potential under Cameron. For as good as Brees was we know now that he was capable of so much more.

**bacchys** · 12-06-2012, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

I still love how people believe that Joe can be elite. Put Joe in GB and start him, and he still wouldn't be elite. Joe is a good QB, nothing more, nothing less. He's more than a game manager, but he isn't a guy you can put them team on and expect him to consistently win you games off his arm.

Maybe he's not elite. So what? Only a few players are elite. That's pretty much the definition of it. People throw that word and "great" around a lot, but mostly it's bullshit.

We don't need an elite quarterback. We just need a good one. Flacco is at least that.

**goldenelite28** · 12-06-2012, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

Bullshit, all of you that think Joe isn't the man.

I watched the last drive last year in Pittsburgh. Give that man an offense that is creative like something Manning has, he will be ELITE.

But for now, we have John Shcebechler, I mean Harbaugh and Cam 1974 Cameron...

You could time travel and get Joe Montana and Jerry Rice from the 80's and today's defenses would sit on the 9 routes.

Or against NE this year and last.

J5 can win us a SB.

He can't do it himself, but even elite QBs need great teams and coaches around them to win the chip.

**PerpetuallyBored74** · 12-06-2012, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Roethlisberger had a ring by his second season and had a 15-1 season in his rookie year. If we are going to measure Joe by the wins as many of the apologists do, we should do the same with Ben. Flacco has had good winning success but not as much as what Jen had.

Besides, Jen still had greater statistics early on his career than what Joe has ever had.

ORLY?

Code:

BEN ROETHLISBERGER
Year     Age  Tm Pos No.  G GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A  Y/C   Y/G Rate   QBR  Sk  Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD AV
2004      22 PIT  QB   7 14 13  13-0-0  196  295 66.4  2621 17 5.8  11  3.7  58 8.9  8.4 13.4 187.2 98.1        30  213 7.41  6.93 9.2   5   6 11
2005      23 PIT  QB   7 12 12   9-3-0  168  268 62.7  2385 17 6.3   9  3.4  85 8.9  8.7 14.2 198.8 98.6        23  129 7.75  7.53 7.9   2   2 11
2006      24 PIT  QB   7 15 15   7-8-0  280  469 59.7  3513 18 3.8  23  4.9  67 7.5  6.1 12.5 234.2 75.4        46  280 6.28  4.97 8.9   2   3 11
2007*     25 PIT  QB   7 15 15  10-5-0  264  404 65.3  3154 32 7.9  11  2.7  83 7.8  8.2 11.9 210.3 104.1       47  347 6.22  6.55 10.4  1   2 14
2008      26 PIT  QB   7 16 16  12-4-0  281  469 59.9  3301 17 3.6  15  3.2  65 7.0  6.3 11.7 206.3 80.1 46.82  46  284 5.86  5.21 8.9   5   5 
5 YR TOT     PIT 	 72 71 51-20-0 1189 1905 62.4 14974 101 5.3 69  3.6  85 7.9  7.3 12.6 208.0 89.4       192 1253 6.54  6.03 9.2  15  18 47

JOE FLACCO
Year     Age  Tm Pos No.  G GS   QBrec  Cmp  Att Cmp%   Yds TD TD% Int Int% Lng Y/A AY/A  Y/C   Y/G Rate   QBR  Sk  Yds NY/A ANY/A Sk% 4QC GWD AV
2008      23 BAL  QB   5 16 16  11-5-0  257  428 60.0  2971 14 3.3  12  2.8  70 6.9  6.3 11.6 185.7 80.3 43.23  32  276 5.86  5.29 7.0   1   2 11
2009      24 BAL  QB   5 16 16   9-7-0  315  499 63.1  3613 21 4.2  12  2.4  72 7.2  7.0 11.5 225.8 88.9 55.03  36  218 6.35  6.12 6.7   1   2 13
2010      25 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  306  489 62.6  3622 25 5.1  10  2.0  67 7.4  7.5 11.8 226.4 93.6 60.38  40  294 6.29  6.39 7.6   2   4 12
2011      26 BAL  QB   5 16 16  12-4-0  312  542 57.6  3610 20 3.7  12  2.2  74 6.7  6.4 11.6 225.6 80.9 59.69  31  203 5.95  5.70 5.4   2   3 12
2012      27 BAL  QB   5 12 12   9-3-0  252  426 59.2  3038 15 3.5   8  1.9  54 7.1  7.0 12.1 253.2 85.0 50.81  29  179 6.28  6.15 6.4   3   3   
5 YR TOT                 76 76 53-23-0 1442 2384 60.5 16854 95 4.0  54  2.3  74 7.1  6.8 11.7 221.8 85.8       168 1170 6.15  5.94 6.6   9  14 48

**leachisabeast** · 12-06-2012, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Corey

Leach stats are subjective. You know that. In Brees best year, the Oakland Raiders and Kansas City Chiefs ranked 30th and 31st in total defense that year. Think about that. A quarter of his schedule came against bottom 5 defenses in the NFL.

You can twist stats any you want. That is why they can not be relied on. The point is QB's do not reach their full potential under Cameron. For as good as Brees was we know now that he was capable of so much more.

Ok then, how about Philip Rivers in his rookie season under Cam (61.5 comp %, 9th in yards, and a rating of 92).

Just reminding you that this year we have played, and will play the following.

KC (16th ranked defense)
Philly (17th ranked defense)
NYG (22nd ranked defense)
Believeland (23rd ranked defense)
NE (26th ranked defense)
Oakland (28th ranked defense)
Deadskins (29th ranked defense)

That seems to be a large portion of our schedule playing some low ranked defenses.

What you also forgot to mention was that Brees didn't have the receiving talent than what Joe has right now.

**leachisabeast** · 12-06-2012, 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by bacchys

Maybe he's not elite. So what? Only a few players are elite. That's pretty much the definition of it. People throw that word and "great" around a lot, but mostly it's bullshit.

We don't need an elite quarterback. We just need a good one. Flacco is at least that.

That's what my damn point was!