NBA playoffs

[HoustonRaven]

And I think your point is different argument altogether.

You're arguing legacy, while other seem to be arguing talent.

You're probably right.

But RiW and I went back and forth on talent some what. Kobe and Jordan have that clutch "gene" while Lebron seems to lack it.

So if we're speaking *just* on talent, I'd say it Jordan at 1, Kobe at 1a and Lebron at 2. And I'll say it again so I don't get accused of hating the dude, LBJ can certainly be GOAT one day.

If he can match Jordan in terms of sustained success and championships, it can be done, even if he doesn't match Jordan in scoring titles.

[Ravenswintitle]

But the thing is, if the Heat don't win the title, people will say 'see, Lebron's not X'. No matter how he plays, they have to win the title for him to get the respect, and there will still be nay sayers. With Wade injured, it's pretty much Lebron and freakin Birdman!

[HoustonRaven]

But the thing is, if the Heat don't win the title, people will say 'see, Lebron's not X'. No matter how he plays, they have to win the title for him to get the respect, and there will still be nay sayers. With Wade injured, it's pretty much Lebron and freakin Birdman!

And rightfully so.

He's on a dream team now, a team that expects to win it all every year. The deck is stacked in his favor to win those titles.

[ActualSpamBot]

And rightfully so.

He's on a dream team now, a team that expects to win it all every year. The deck is stacked in his favor to win those titles.

As compared to Jordan who had no one but Pippen and Rodman, or Kobe who had to slog it out with just Shaq right?

[HoustonRaven]

As compared to Jordan who had no one but Pippen and Rodman, or Kobe who had to slog it out with just Shaq right?

Not sure what you're arguing here.

Jordan and Kobe had great supporting casts. I never disputed that nor was it a debate point.

My point is now that Lebron has that same supporting cast, he's going to be judged on titles going forward.

[JAB1985]

You're probably right.

But RiW and I went back and forth on talent some what. Kobe and Jordan have that clutch "gene" while Lebron seems to lack it.

I think thats been proven repeatedly to be false. Lebron has made the big shot, in this series even. The difference is his need to be the guy to take the big shot instead of making the pass, which even jordan and kobe have passed in big moments (paxon, kerr, fisher horry). Im not sure why Jordan and Kobe get this label and LBJ doesnt.

Using the standard clutch filters—the last five minutes of the game leading or trailing by no more than five points—in the 369 minutes of high-pressure basketball he has played with Miami, James leads the NBA with a player efficiency rating of 34.8, regular season and playoffs. We don't need to name names here, but think of any player and James has been more efficient late in close games, and that's using a metric that doesn't fully factor in defensive talents that almost won him a Defensive Player of the Year award a season ago.

So if we're speaking *just* on talent, I'd say it Jordan at 1, Kobe at 1a and Lebron at 2. And I'll say it again so I don't get accused of hating the dude, LBJ can certainly be GOAT one day.

If he can match Jordan in terms of sustained success and championships, it can be done, even if he doesn't match Jordan in scoring titles.

Do you value scoring more than other facets of the game? Is ultimately a guy that scores you 10 more important than a guy that stop the other team from scoring 10? or is 5 assists not worth 10 pts (or more)?

Neither Kobe or Jordan had the ability to defend and shutdown 1-5 like LBJ. while i think both are overrated for their defensive efforts (outside jordans first few years), they still mostly jumped lanes for stats rather than completely shut down an opponent.

[akashicrecorder]

Everybody doesn't hate Lebron. Winning changes many peoples perception...same thing happened with Kobe.

Personally though, I hate Georgetown so Im no fan of Hibbert and I've hated the Pacers ever since they Reggie Miller was his insufferable there.

When did I say that 1) I "hate" LeBron James or 2) "everybody" does? I happen not to like him for what he did to his hometown team and for running from a difficult situation to the easiest one possible.

And wow, honestly, I don't care if you don't like Georgetown or Roy Hibbert. That's your right. I guess the only difference is I don't take it personally or get up in arms when you say so. :chill

[ActualSpamBot]

Not sure what you're arguing here.

Jordan and Kobe had great supporting casts. I never disputed that nor was it a debate point.

My point is now that Lebron has that same supporting cast, he's going to be judged on titles going forward.

I don't think anyone judged Kobe or Jordan to the standard that they should win a title "every year" which was the standard you seemed to be applying to Lebron.

[JAB1985]

I don't think anyone judged Kobe or Jordan to the standard that they should win a title "every year" which was the standard you seemed to be applying to Lebron.

theyre not being judged equally under this scenario. certainly not on Kobes part. With Jordan, they won most years so at least theres an argument. The years they didnt, Pippen either led the same team to a great seed or he came back and cost them but isnt held accountable because he only played 27 games, despite his stats being the same as they were. seems like an excuse to say they shouldnt have because he came back late.

[HoustonRaven]

I think thats been proven repeatedly to be false.

Not sure how an opinion can be "proven repeatedly to be false" but ok.

Lebron has made the big shot, in this series even.

Ok. I never said he's never done it before. But when compared to Jordan, he passes the ball more often than Jordan did ... in this series even.

The difference is his need to be the guy to take the big shot instead of making the pass, which even jordan and kobe have passed in big moments (paxon, kerr, fisher horry). Im not sure why Jordan and Kobe get this label and LBJ doesnt.

Whoa. The words "pass" and Kobe" do not deserve to be in the same sentence. ;)

Do you value scoring more than other facets of the game? Is ultimately a guy that scores you 10 more important than a guy that stop the other team from scoring 10? or is 5 assists not worth 10 pts (or more)?

Neither Kobe or Jordan had the ability to defend and shutdown 1-5 like LBJ. while i think both are overrated for their defensive efforts (outside jordans first few years), they still mostly jumped lanes for stats rather than completely shut down an opponent.

Different game back then.

I think I stated earlier what I think will put LBJ in the discussion with Jordan -- Championships. They have almost mirror images in terms of career averages in the important measurables.

Give Lebron more rings and the same sustained career success as Jordan and he can be the GOAT.

[HoustonRaven]

I don't think anyone judged Kobe or Jordan to the standard that they should win a title "every year" which was the standard you seemed to be applying to Lebron.

I didn't apply the standard. They applied it to themselves.

And if Lebron wants to be the GOAT, championships are the only way it's going to happen.

[NCRAVEN]

You're probably right.

But RiW and I went back and forth on talent some what. Kobe and Jordan have that clutch "gene" while Lebron seems to lack it.

So if we're speaking *just* on talent, I'd say it Jordan at 1, Kobe at 1a and Lebron at 2. And I'll say it again so I don't get accused of hating the dude, LBJ can certainly be GOAT one day.

If he can match Jordan in terms of sustained success and championships, it can be done, even if he doesn't match Jordan in scoring titles.

I would put LBJ equal with Kobe. LBJ is more well-rounded and versatile.

Plus I would say LBJ is as clutch if not moreso at this point than Kobe. Lebron took over and all but won the Celtics series and the Finals last year. He has a bad few games against Dallas one year and was clutch before and since then but that series seems to have stuck with him.

Kobe in the last game of his last championship series missed damn near everything.

And rightfully so.

He's on a dream team now, a team that expects to win it all every year. The deck is stacked in his favor to win those titles.

I would disagree with that. Wade while still one of my favorite players is physically breaking down. Bosh, I'm not sure why he or if he ever got the label of superstar. And after that, Chalmers why good may never be an all-star and that's really about it in the way of dreamteam or superstar status goes