Referee Lockout (Merged)

**jd345** · 09-02-2012, 09:05 PM

Been out of this thread for quite a while but will jump back in...in 2011 the NFL revenue was 9 billion dollars. That is 1 million dollars 9,000 times over. If we give the refs the raise they want that would equal approximatley 100 million dollar (wont go into now, but includes raises, pensions, etc...) per year and to be honest and i'm erroring on the high side of what it will be. That raise represents 1/90th of the "pie." It is sick money, and we would all love to make that kind of money...but are they being unreasonable? I argue that if we have replacement refs that in five years from now they will demand the same money. Put yourself in the shoes of the regular refs...just like a player (and probably not as easily replaced) would you not hold out? You have the supply, the NFL has the demad, they are currently paying you 1/200 of the yearly revenue and you are the cream of the crop as far as refs are concerned. Personally, I just want a fair game called, I could care less who does it. But, in my opinion, there are only a select few who can do it. Pay them and lets get on with the season. GO RAVENS>

**Beau Petard** · 09-02-2012, 09:16 PM

jd--
I'm afraid some folks find my views to be in favor of one side or the other, but my concern is that neither side has altruistic motives. What I find troubling is that the NFLRA seems to be more concerned about covering the collective asses of their lesser-performing members, and the league seems to be pinching pennies until Lincoln squeals!

One of my basic thoughts on why the officials should go full time and NOT get ridiculous amounts of money is, there needs to be a more effective and timely way of culling those guys who just aren't "good" officials. At the same time, the league needs to cough up a little of the largesse they have in a show of good faith that they want to put the best quality product on the field that they can.

I can understand the league not wanting to "favor" the officials with a more attractive pension plan than they offer to the other "regular" employees. And I understand guys who are looking to make NFL officiating a full-time career. But I see and hear an awful lot of political bullshit/smoke floating into the debate from both sides in order to line their respective pockets, with little or no concern for the fans OR the "integrity" of the game.

Bottom line is, this is pretty much the same kinda horseshit conflict I hear when players, their agents and teams start whining in the media about how much/little a contract is.

**TheJoeFlaccoShow** · 09-03-2012, 08:53 PM

From Peter King MMQB...

The pension part of the negotiations, I'm told, is a non-starter for the league. The large majority of full-time NFL employees have 401k-based pensions, not the defined-benefit pensions the officials have now, and the league wants to change over to the 401k model. The NFL doesn't want part-time employees, many of whom have pensions at their other jobs, to have a better pension system than full-time NFL

"If the officials would drop their pension demand -- that the current officials be grandfathered in to the more advantageous pension plan, while newly hired officials would have 401k pensions -- this dispute would probably end quickly."

**jd345** · 09-17-2012, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by jd345

Been out of this thread for quite a while but will jump back in...in 2011 the NFL revenue was 9 billion dollars. That is 1 million dollars 9,000 times over. If we give the refs the raise they want that would equal approximatley 100 million dollar (wont go into now, but includes raises, pensions, etc...) per year and to be honest and i'm erroring on the high side of what it will be. That raise represents 1/90th of the "pie." It is sick money, and we would all love to make that kind of money...but are they being unreasonable? I argue that if we have replacement refs that in five years from now they will demand the same money. Put yourself in the shoes of the regular refs...just like a player (and probably not as easily replaced) would you not hold out? You have the supply, the NFL has the demad, they are currently paying you 1/200 of the yearly revenue and you are the cream of the crop as far as refs are concerned. Personally, I just want a fair game called, I could care less who does it. But, in my opinion, there are only a select few who can do it. Pay them and lets get on with the season. GO RAVENS>

Going back to this thread...think it is a little different than the merged thread on the officials in that it deals with the monetary demands of the "real" refs but mods feel free to merge it in if you feel it is warranted. In the preseason many argued that they would have a "small effect" on the game and it was time to show the full time refs that they were replaceable. Back to gool ol' supply and demand.. I was at our game this week in Philly (and haven't missed a home game since we got our team back in Baltimore) and have never seen such a cluster **** of a game called...you know it is bad when you are sitting around Eagles fans and you actually start to share the same viewpoints as they are bitching about how pathetic it is...almost a 4 hour regulation game we played with "chaos" on the field. Watching Monday night football and it is anything but a train wreck from an officating standpoint. Game itself, not bad, officiating, laughable. Almost 11 o'clock and we are barely into the second half...not only can they not get the calls right that are deciding the outcomes of games but the speed of the game is slowing greatly. Point is...many people said the regular refs are easily replaceable...they sucked anyway. We are starting to see what really "sucking" at officiating actually entails. The players are picking up on it as are the coaches...these games are going to get uglier as the season progresses as are the calls in my opinion...these refs will start losing control of the games more than they are already as the players and coaches learn to take advantage of their incapability to call a game. Supply and demand...the regular refs blew calls here and there, no doubt, but they are the best in the business and their services are not easily replaceable. I gave the monetary figures above to get the deal done. Will gladly have my season ticket prices raised 1/90th (2 a game) to get the "real" refs back. Will they blow calls...sure will...will we gripe about them...sure will...but nothing like this, this is painful to watch. Sorry about the rant, and mods merge this into the other thread if you want, but pay these guys and lets play NFL football the way it was meant to be played. End of rant :) GO RAVENS

**Ravenswintitle** · 09-17-2012, 11:08 PM

Well put jd, I hope they get back to negotiating. This is like watching football in the 80s

**Haloti92** · 09-17-2012, 11:18 PM

I hope the league stands pat, but that it does something to address the players and coaches from taking advantage of the situation. If the players (and coaches) riot uncontrollably because they feel they "can" without consequence, then the league needs to either a) order the new refs to start ejecting people on a zero-tolerance basis, and/or b) start fining players and coaches for their outbursts.

These administration delays will reduce over time, and if all the after-the-play rioting is also addressed, the delays will become less of an issue.

There are way less bad "calls" than people claim, but there certainly is plenty of (too many) delays and minor yardage mistakes.

The worst mistake made in terms of affecting the outcome was the BS ruling that the Falcons recovered Moreno's fumble. The Broncos jumped on it and they came out with it, and from the replay I didn't see any point where a Falcon had it. A ticky-tack holding and a ticky-tack/phantom PI along with that egregious mistake on the fumble are the only real mistakes in terms of calls. As of 5 minutes ago.

**StingerNLG** · 09-17-2012, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle

Well put jd, I hope they get back to negotiating. This is like watching football in the 80s

Which would be fine if it was consistent. But it's not.

All this talk about how ok the replacement refs are I think started going out the window this week. And it's not just the Ravens game. It's this MNF game, and a few other games this week that the players are chirping about.

And unfortunately, I think this week's performance from the refs is going to do nothing but get the NFLRA to completely dig in on their demands now. Unless things drastically change next week and beyond, the NFL is going to have to flinch on this one.

**jd345** · 09-17-2012, 11:30 PM

The point becomes this though in the long run...if the replacement refs (assuming we stick with them)...actually, in a couple of years, get as good as our "regular refs," they will demand the same amount of money. The NFL is a business. You can't pay an integral part of your structural system (the refs) 1/200 of the revenue when they are an essential part of your product (which is what they are paid now with a 9 billion in revenue). I agree, it is disgusting what they want to be paid...but what is the alternative? The ability to ref an NFL game to the level that is needed is a skill possesed by few. The NFL has 9 billion in revenue. You have a skill possesed by few that a 9 billion dollar a year business needs...economics 101 and supply and demand. (once again I don't agree with paying them that much but I live in the business/business statistics and probability world and know how this probably ends...not that I agree...but get it over with and give them the 100 million...or 1/90th of the "pie") . Lets get back to real football.

**StingerNLG** · 09-17-2012, 11:45 PM

I agree. And right now I don't want those couple of years to possibly affect the Ravens season like they affected the game yesterday (which I am still standing by). However I do agree the refs MUST be full-time employees and be subject to off-season training and evaluations just like the players. And they need be held accountable for their mistakes too.

**Haloti92** · 09-17-2012, 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by jd345

The point becomes this though in the long run...if the replacement refs (assuming we stick with them)...actually, in a couple of years, get as good as our "regular refs," they will demand the same amount of money. The NFL is a business. You can't pay an integral part of your structural system (the refs) 1/200 of the revenue when they are an essential part of your product (which is what they are paid now with a 9 billion in revenue). I agree, it is disgusting what they want to be paid...but what is the alternative? The ability to ref an NFL game to the level that is needed is a skill possesed by few. The NFL has 9 billion in revenue. You have a skill possesed by few that a 9 billion dollar a year business needs...economics 101 and supply and demand. (once again I don't agree with paying them that much but I live in the business/business statistics and probability world and know how this probably ends...not that I agree...but get it over with and give them the 100 million...or 1/90th of the "pie") . Lets get back to real football.

How is your argument affected by assuming that the replacement refs get as "good" as the old refs in 8 weeks? How is it affected by assuming that the NFL suffers negligibly in their bottomline during the "training" period of the new refs? What happens when you give in here, admitting that the old refs are "integral" and then they ask for $300M next year?

The league will set a very bad precedent by giving in, and the way this has panned out so far, I suspect the old refs will make it very hard to reach a deal.

I think the league will tough it out a little while longer, but it won't do any good if it doesn't address some of the problems that have arisen due to the replacement officials; and I am talking about problems above and beyond the quality of the actual penalty-calling. The actual penalty-calling is way way less worse than people claim. Sure they are making mistakes, but nowhere near the calamitous numbers it sounds like listening to people whinge uncontrollably after their team loses.

1. They need to "force" these officials to learn these basic administration issues, even if it means mandatory mid-week written tests and fines/termination for failing them. Not knowing how to walk off multiple, offsetting obscure fouls is one thing, but failing to walk off the correct yardage for a basic defnsive holding or offensive pass interference is another. Semi-avid fans would never screw up the latter, and these guys are getting paid.

2. They need to absolutely demand these new officials start ejecting these out-of-line reactions, by both players and coaches. Hell, they should pay the refs bonuses to do so if they have to. It is plainly obvious that the players and coaches are taking advantage of the situation. They go apoplectic over numerous fouls that often were called correctly, and they bump the officials and walk onto the field, etc. Ejections are in order, but the new refs are too scared to do it. Obviously everyone will criticize them for it, so they can't "win" in the situation either way, but they lose less if they employ an iron fist.

3. The league should also fine players and coaches for such over-the-top outbursts and criticisms in the media. They do it with the other refs, they should do it with these refs.

**redmike34** · 09-17-2012, 11:52 PM

Watched Florio on the NBC sports network earlier today... I think I agree with his take. The league has all the leverage here. The NFL fan base is not going to stop watching football over this, so it's not going to affect the league's bottom line. As long as the money keeps rolling in, does the league really care? Maybe one or two owners who get schlonged on calls will moan, but unless it happens to a lot of them, I don't see them caving.