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  1. #16

    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?



    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Man, you young guys don't remember any of this but it was all brought out in the election. I thought everyone knew.
    I'm looking at the book UNFIT FOR COMMAND by John O'Neil the naval officer who took over Kerry's swift boat in the muddy
    waters of Vietnam. O'Neil was there and said Kerry was and is unfit for command as a naval officer let alone as commander in
    chief of the US.

    Speaking of the medals he says 2 of Kerry's purple hearts resulted from self inflicted wounds not by enemy fire. The 3rd was a
    "fanny wound." That was the highlight of his much touted Bronze Star.

    He raised false reports on the trajic death a father and a small Vietnamese child into an act of heroism by filing a false report
    on the incident.

    As for that entire crew - Kerry's reckless behavior convinced his colleagues that he had to go becoming the only swift boat veteran to serve only four months in Vietnam. And in the middle of the book is a pic of that crew and they all hated him.
    Also a pic of his pic in Hanoi's museum with a plaque that displays his pic with the caption thanking him and all
    the members of the working communist parties around the world and thus the commie parody in the OP of this thread.

    He burned down homes of innocent civilians with a zippo lighter and killed all their animals.

    Then he became a leader of the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and attended one of their meetings where the subject
    of assassinating prominent US Senators was discussed.


    Some believe he violated the uniform code of military justice by meeting with communist delegates at the Paris Peace
    Conference during the war.

    All that is on the flap of the book.
    youre book is by the guy that says Kerry lied and started the whole SVBT group in the first place. Of course its going to support the claims SVBT put out. Oneill also has ties to the Bush family for the record. add it up and its not hard to see where all of this came from. it was conveniently released right before the election in 2004 but yet the military documents said the exact opposite of his claims were released in 2008. Numerous claims from that book have been "debunked". Simply a man with a vendetta and/or agenda. if you choose to believe it, so be it, but its certainly not been "proven" by any measure. The guy was there, but so were the other 2-3 guys that said it was bullshit. One guy is lying, or are multiple guys lying (Kerry, his officers above him, his fellow soldiers that wrote letters of eye witness, etc). They dont typically hand out medals for nothing and without validation. to each their own i guess but i typically go with the path of least resistance. Whether or not he was fit to command is whole other issue. I dont think he was, but i didnt think Bush was either.

    ill take the reports and eyewitness accounts from 30 years prior vs the ones right before the election. we know how that can change a persons opinon from time to time... like Mitt Romney.
    -JAB




  2. #17
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Nothing that Corsi wrote has ever been dis-proven so you're going to need to back this up, JAB.

    As for medals being handed out, well, yes, medals were handed out left and right during Vietnam. It was a highly unpopular war and medals were issued like candy to keep morale up. The NYT did a piece way back in the day on this very phenomenon and it was the catalyst for why many Vets at the time were throwing them away. They did not think they deserved them.

    You've decided to believe Kerry's version and that's your right. But that's not license to then say what Corsi et all wrote was dishonest, regardless what wiki is telling you. Dozens of people have come forward to give their version of the events. Kerry managed, at most, 3 to back up his.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  3. #18
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    And Kerry has ties to the Boston Globe and NY Times plus the rest of the liberal mainstream media that covered his crap
    just like they did the Libyan incident for OBY.

    O'Neil wasnt the only swifty to say these things and I just posted a quote about numerous other swifties in the division that
    hated him.

    The only ones that loved him were his liberal commie comrads in the Veterans against the Vitenam War.

    Man, you libs are so blind. This book posts photos of Kerry in Hanoi's War Crime Museum for Americans. Kerry is the only
    one it praises and gives thanks for.

    That's evidence.




  4. #19
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Nothing that Corsi wrote has ever been dis-proven so you're going to need to back this up, JAB.

    As for medals being handed out, well, yes, medals were handed out left and right during Vietnam. It was a highly unpopular war and medals were issued like candy to keep morale up. The NYT did a piece way back in the day on this very phenomenon and it was the catalyst for why many Vets at the time were throwing them away. They did not think they deserved them.

    You've decided to believe Kerry's version and that's your right. But that's not license to then say what Corsi et all wrote was dishonest, regardless what wiki is telling you. Dozens of people have come forward to give their version of the events. Kerry managed, at most, 3 to back up his.
    And these are the other founders of their group besides O'Neil:


    Founding members of SBVT include Rear Admiral Roy Hoffmann (retired), a former commander of Swift boat forces; Colonel Bud Day, who received the Medal of Honor.

    BTW, great post HR.




  5. #20
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Nothing that Corsi wrote has ever been dis-proven so you're going to need to back this up, JAB.
    \
    The Swift Boat nonsense was THOROUGHLY debunked as early as 2004. Check out this article summarizing multiple claims and how they can all be disproven simply by reading the military records: http://mediamatters.org/research/200...efend-s/131876

    The relevant military documents are linked to in the article for people who would like to do their own research.

    The Swift Boat issue was a smear job. Period. It had little to no factual grounding and anyone still repeating its lies is either misinformed or willfully propagating slander.


    Now, all that said, Kerry isn't getting the Defense job. He'd have to give up his Senate seat and then the Republicans have a really good chance of getting Scott Brown into it. Obama isn't going to weaken an already slim Democratic majority if he can avoid it.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  6. #21
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    I am sorry but Media Matters is no more a credible source for information on SBV than the Media Research Center would be on the Libya attacks.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #22
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I am sorry but Media Matters is no more a credible source for information on SBV than the Media Research Center would be on the Libya attacks.
    Instead of reading the link and then dismissing it, read the article and point out what they said that is even a debatable opinion. Everything in that article is factual information. Not to mention, they linked to the actual documents. Ignore their commentary and read the first hand sources as I suggested.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  8. #23
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    Instead of reading the link and then dismissing it, read the article and point out what they said that is even a debatable opinion. Everything in that article is factual information. Not to mention, they linked to the actual documents. Ignore their commentary and read the first hand sources as I suggested.
    And I have, but from a relatively unbiased source ....

    http://www.factcheck.org/republican-...ar_record.html

    Pretty even handed break down of what was said what was not said. Even they concluded "At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth".

    So it's about which way you lean it would seem.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  9. #24
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    A group funded by the biggest Republican campaign donor in Texas began running an attack ad Aug. 5 in which former Swift Boat veterans claim Kerry lied to get one of his two decorations for bravery and two of his three purple hearts.
    But the veterans who accuse Kerry are contradicted by Kerry's former crewmen, and by Navy records.


    That's also in the fact check article.

    In fact, the vast majority of that article is a virtual repeat of the media matters one. Multiple original sources disproving or providing strong evidence against the Swift Boat claims.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  10. #25
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    [/B]
    That's also in the fact check article.

    In fact, the vast majority of that article is a virtual repeat of the media matters one. Multiple original sources disproving or providing strong evidence against the Swift Boat claims.
    No, it's not. Read it again. Many of the books sources have stuck to their original story. Yes, there were a few who backed off "some" of the claims, but by and large, the folks in the book stuck to their stories.

    MM points out the initial and early contradictions but makes no mention to the follow ups where clarifications were made that were still very damning to Kerry. For example, his former commanding officer still believes to this day he shot someone in the back and does not deserve the medals he received.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  11. #26
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    People with agendas sticking to their stories decades after the fact are hardly more convincing to me than official military documentation.

    Did you give equal credence to the people who reported that Mitt Romney was a bully in high school who assaulted a gay student even when there was no documentation to back them up? If not, why are these people with an ax to grind more believable than those people?
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  12. #27
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    People with agendas sticking to their stories decades after the fact are hardly more convincing to me than official military documentation.

    Did you give equal credence to the people who reported that Mitt Romney was a bully in high school who assaulted a gay student even when there was no documentation to back them up? If not, why are these people with an ax to grind more believable than those people?
    Since I didn't vote for Romney, I had no opinion either way on those allegations.

    And I could say the same thing about your source. They have "an ax to grind" as well and they left out much information just to make their "case".
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  13. #28
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    My source was and remains, the original Navy documents. I went with the MM article simply because it linked to them in a coherent manner, listing each relevant one next to the Swift Boat claim.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron




  14. #29
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    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Clearly, you've never served.

    Citations that go along with medals are flowery to say the least. I have an ARCOM in my file that says, during my stay at Ft. Leonard Wood, I served in the highest ethical standards and bravery commensurate with the best traditions of the Army.

    Wanna know what I did? I sat on a gate for 2 weeks and while I was supposed to be checking ID's as soldiers drove past, I racked up a $300 calling card bill, calling my girlfriend back in MD.

    It's all about who writes, not the why. Point being, those "documents" to which MM links can be taken in about a dozen different direction when, like they do, do not provide the full context of the situation.

    And your MM source does not discredit Corsi or the others in the book. It's debunking an FNC report about the book.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  15. #30

    Re: Secretary of Defense Kerry?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Nothing that Corsi wrote has ever been dis-proven so you're going to need to back this up, JAB.

    As for medals being handed out, well, yes, medals were handed out left and right during Vietnam. It was a highly unpopular war and medals were issued like candy to keep morale up. The NYT did a piece way back in the day on this very phenomenon and it was the catalyst for why many Vets at the time were throwing them away. They did not think they deserved them.

    You've decided to believe Kerry's version and that's your right. But that's not license to then say what Corsi et all wrote was dishonest, regardless what wiki is telling you. Dozens of people have come forward to give their version of the events. Kerry managed, at most, 3 to back up his.
    Dozens to support? I just keep seeing the same two guys that wrote it or the ones that wrote the letters of commendation 30 years ago for said medals. Why lie about it than? whats the agenda? right before an election, you change your story? you happen to be linked to the guy hes running against and/or are a right wing extremist. Thats to convient. Wiki is not my source for discrediting it, but looking up either Corsi or Oneill and its just one site after another discrediting them. The site below pretty much contradicts anything the group has said and explains its funding as well. Military documents, eye witness accounts, and uncovered lies and blatant Partisanship as well as prejudice against catholics, jews, and muslims.

    http://www.factcheck.org/republican-...ar_record.html

    None of those in the attack ad by the Swift Boat group actually served on Kerry's boat. And their statements are contrary to the accounts of Kerry and those who served under him.
    this doesnt back up that "his own swifties hated him". the ones that actually were closest to him liked him, and supported his claims in entirety. the only ones that didnt, were from other boats and "did not serve with Kerry in vietnam." is that dis-proving? technically no, but id say there is a lot more evidence in support than against. It is to each their own, i just dislike Propaganda being spread as gospel.

    EDIT: Just saw you posted the same link, hard to imagine we come away from the same article with such obvious differences. To me that entire fact checking article was debunking the men behind the ads and their claims but came to a conclusion that well never know the truth entirely, which I agree with. In my opinion more evidence overwhelmingly points to Kerry being right, which is why i believe that and find it hard to support the characters involved that started the negative campaign.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 11-14-2012 at 09:08 AM.
    -JAB




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