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  1. #61
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    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Ozzie and Co. have gotten kind of complacent with LB, especially ILB. I mean, if you found gems like Bart Scott, Adalius Thomas, Pernell McPhee, and for all intents and purposes, Jameel McClain, Dannell Ellerbe, and Albert McClellan, you might think you can get away with not having to use high draft picks on front 7 personnel all of the time. The problem is, that has kind of come back to bite them in the ass a bit because they really have a lack of talent in the front 7 outside of Suggs and Ngata. I definitely think Dean Pees is part of the problem, but not addressing ILB for so many years is a bit concerning.
    I think you make a valid point, one that I've pointed out in the past. The front office seems to have cycles where they believe they can cheat the system with low draft picks or retread veterans. I believe they enjoy success with this approach for a while and it encourages them to keep going, but eventually it catches up with them.

    Inside linebackers are a classic case. After using a first rounder on Ray, and then a second rounder on Jamie Sharper, it has been a pretty good drought of bargain players, some of whom were really good, but lately not so much. To wit:

    Ron Rogers (6th)
    Ed Hartwell (4th)
    Mike Smith (7th)
    Jason Phillips (5th)

    And then you throw in undrafteds like Scott, Ellerbe, McClain, Bynes, McClellan, Ayenbadjo, and you start to see that with a declining Ray, it just is not cutting it.

    I think they believe that ILB is a less athletic position that allows them to skimp, and instead invest in more athletic players at other positions. Problem is that while Ray has declined, the position has also changed to require a lot more pass coverage skills.

    They went through a similar trend with offensive linemen, getting by with later draft picks and undrafted or retreads like Mulitalo, Mabry, Flynn, Pashos, Mitchell, Brown, Zeus, etc. As the game/rules shifted to favor the pass, they needed to adjust and spent higher picks on more athletic linemen (Yanda, Grubbs, Oher, Oseleme)

    The same "skimping" approach was also once employed with cornerbacks even. There was a period just before Harbaugh got here when it was guys like Rolle, Foxworth, Ivy, Walker, Washington, etc.

    To some extent we see it on the defensive line. Ngata and Cody are certainly big investments. But unlike most positions, they rotate a lot of D linemen into games, and now it is later round picks and retreads like McPhee, Jones, Tyson, Kemo, etc who they have to rely on to play at a high level.

    You can't have stars at every position. But at times I think their philosophy boxes them in with bargain basement players concentrated at certain positions. With Ray and Ed close to being done, they could use high level talent at safety, ILB, DL, and G/C.




  2. #62

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    The Steelers win last Sunday was impressive. No denying it. But prior to that, their previous 2 wins were against the Redskins and Bengals. And prior to that, they had lost 2 of 3 to the Raiders and Titans and barely beat the Eagles.

    I expect them to play well and to be a tough team for the Ravens to beat, but I have a hard time seeing any trend other than "you are as good as your last game", maybe.
    True, but its their win last week that scares me so much. Earlier in the year it appeared as though their defense was struggling like ours. Unfortunately, they seem to have righted the ship whereas we have not. It pisses me off that (at least it seems) every team goes through down times exept them. I'd love to see them have a few down years and knock some of the obnoxious fans off their bandwagon. This past weekend I even saw two exclusively steeler's commercials on local TV during a game. WTF?




  3. #63

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    And have had just as much "success" doing it as the Ravens.

    Sure. I would love to see the Ravens win it all, but barring that, I know for damn sure I will take their post-seasons over the Falcons' last 3 appearances. But that is just me; your mileage may vary.
    Dude, the Falcons are clearly a better team than us. Just stop




  4. #64

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    Dude, the Falcons are clearly a better team than us. Just stop
    At this point of the season, they very well may be. Too bad for them that they don't hand out Lombardi's (or in their case, playoff victories) in November.




  5. #65

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    At this point of the season, they very well may be. Too bad for them that they don't hand out Lombardi's (or in their case, playoff victories) in November.
    There is no very well may be, they are.

    Have they been bad in the playoffs? Yes, but Matt Ryan is clearly the better quarterback than Joe Flacco right now.




  6. #66
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    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    There is no very well may be, they are.

    Have they been bad in the playoffs? Yes, but Matt Ryan is clearly the better quarterback than Joe Flacco right now.
    There have been multiple posts and threads with tons of evidence supporting just the opposite.

    Nothing against Matt Ryan, he's very good, but if you switched the two you'd likely be saying the same things about Flacco.

    I don't want to turn this into a Flacco vs Ryan thread, because there are plenty of threads on this forum on THAT specific topic. However, if you compare the number of times Matt Ryan has faced top tiered defenses vs the number of times that Flacco has, it is striking how much of a variance there is between just those two stats.
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  7. #67

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I don't want to turn this into a Flacco vs Ryan thread, because there are plenty of threads on this forum on THAT specific topic. However, if you compare the number of times Matt Ryan has faced top tiered defenses vs the number of times that Flacco has, it is striking how much of a variance there is between just those two stats.
    Nor do I. The original claim of this thread was making the argument that the Falcons had been more aggressive, and in turn better, at trying to improve their team. And by way of comparison used the Ravens inability to win a Super Bowl as evidence that Baltimore was somehow ok with "standing pat" and not improving, in fact regressing.

    Whether one believes the Ravens have been too aggressive, to passive, or "just right" in their off-season adjustments, I think it is silly to use the Falcons as the bellwether of that argument.




  8. #68
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    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    Dude, the Falcons are clearly a better team than us. Just stop
    Like that matters when it really matters.

    We were also a significantly better team than the New York Giants this time last season, and look what happened when it really mattered.




  9. #69
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    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBKistler View Post
    Nor do I. The original claim of this thread was making the argument that the Falcons had been more aggressive, and in turn better, at trying to improve their team. And by way of comparison used the Ravens inability to win a Super Bowl as evidence that Baltimore was somehow ok with "standing pat" and not improving, in fact regressing.

    Whether one believes the Ravens have been too aggressive, to passive, or "just right" in their off-season adjustments, I think it is silly to use the Falcons as the bellwether of that argument.
    I certainly agree with this.
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

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  10. #70

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    And a head coach from the Billick tree and has touched a Lombardi. Unlike the Reid tree that hasn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    Mike Smith hasn't won crap, I'll admit, but under achieving isn't his M.O., where Reid and Harbaugh are going to be perennial, comes up short.
    Come on Cap't, I know you're not any close to a Harbaugh fan, but that's a pretty big stretch right there.

    So, just because Harbaugh was on Reid's staff, he's somehow destined to be just like Reid?

    Or that being on Billick's SB staff is some indication of sucess for Smith?

    I mean, if that's the case, what happened to all the success that Marvin Lewis and Jack Del Rio are/were supposed to have? Or Singletary or Nolan?

    I guess that's why guys like Crennel, McDaniel and Magini have now hoisted Lombardi's after being on Belichick's staff?

    Or why guys like Norv Turner, Dave Wannstedt and Butch Davis have SB rings as HC?

    Oh, and how is it that John Gruden won a SB after being on Reid's staff?
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  11. #71
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    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Come on Cap't, I know you're not any close to a Harbaugh fan, but that's a pretty big stretch right there.

    So, just because Harbaugh was on Reid's staff, he's somehow destined to be just like Reid?

    Or that being on Billick's SB staff is some indication of sucess for Smith?

    I mean, if that's the case, what happened to all the success that Marvin Lewis and Jack Del Rio are/were supposed to have? Or Singletary or Nolan?

    I guess that's why guys like Crennel, McDaniel and Magini have now hoisted Lombardi's after being on Belichick's staff?

    Or why guys like Norv Turner, Dave Wannstedt and Butch Davis have SB rings as HC?

    Oh, and how is it that John Gruden won a SB after being on Reid's staff?
    Reid's simply not a big game winner and it reflects on John Harbaugh. And Gruden was in Green Bay before Philly.

    My point is Harbaugh SHOULD have better game plan's and adjustments across the board with the insane amount of talent this team WAS stocked with. Now that talent is falling off and the lack of developing younger players is becoming more prevalent, the days of our success are waning.

    I don't want it. I want us to be in the thick of things, but from where I stand, we are Eagles South, win a lot, but not all. The Baltimore Eagles.




  12. #72

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    Reid's simply not a big game winner and it reflects on John Harbaugh. And Gruden was in Green Bay before Philly.
    And, Mike Smith coached under other guys before being on Billick's staff.

    Regardless, that's not really the point. Sorry, I just do see where you can say that just because a coach was on another coach's staff means that he's destined to be like his former boss. Actually, I find that incredibly illogical.

    Look, I'm certainly not saying that Harbaugh doesn't have his issues, but I'm not really sure what Reid has to do with it. In fact, I would argue that Harbaugh's issues as far as game plans and adjustments, as you mentioned, have more to do with his lack of experience on either side of the ball. Because of that, IMO, he relies on his coordinators too much, especially Cam. As a young HC, that's sort of understandable, but at some point, hopefully he outgrows that.
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  13. #73
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    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    The front office seems to have cycles where they believe they can cheat the system with low draft picks or retread veterans. I believe they enjoy success with this approach for a while and it encourages them to keep going, but eventually it catches up with them.

    Inside linebackers are a classic case. After using a first rounder on Ray, and then a second rounder on Jamie Sharper, it has been a pretty good drought of bargain players, some of whom were really good, but lately not so much. To wit:

    Ron Rogers (6th)
    Ed Hartwell (4th)
    Mike Smith (7th)
    Jason Phillips (5th)

    And then you throw in undrafteds like Scott, Ellerbe, McClain, Bynes, McClellan, Ayenbadjo, and you start to see that with a declining Ray, it just is not cutting it.

    I think they believe that ILB is a less athletic position that allows them to skimp, and instead invest in more athletic players at other positions. Problem is that while Ray has declined, the position has also changed to require a lot more pass coverage skills.

    They went through a similar trend with offensive linemen, getting by with later draft picks and undrafted or retreads like Mulitalo, Mabry, Flynn, Pashos, Mitchell, Brown, Zeus, etc. As the game/rules shifted to favor the pass, they needed to adjust and spent higher picks on more athletic linemen (Yanda, Grubbs, Oher, Oseleme)

    The same "skimping" approach was also once employed with cornerbacks even. There was a period just before Harbaugh got here when it was guys like Rolle, Foxworth, Ivy, Walker, Washington, etc.

    To some extent we see it on the defensive line. Ngata and Cody are certainly big investments. But unlike most positions, they rotate a lot of D linemen into games, and now it is later round picks and retreads like McPhee, Jones, Tyson, Kemo, etc who they have to rely on to play at a high level.

    You can't have stars at every position. But at times I think their philosophy boxes them in with bargain basement players concentrated at certain positions. With Ray and Ed close to being done, they could use high level talent at safety, ILB, DL, and G/C.
    A+
    This is the kind of post that makes me think, "Damn! He has put into words what I have been thinking about." If I added anything it would be a question: "Have Oz's drafts been tactically excellent, but strategically flawed?"




  14. #74
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    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    And, Mike Smith coached under other guys before being on Billick's staff.

    Regardless, that's not really the point. Sorry, I just do see where you can say that just because a coach was on another coach's staff means that he's destined to be like his former boss. Actually, I find that incredibly illogical.

    Look, I'm certainly not saying that Harbaugh doesn't have his issues, but I'm not really sure what Reid has to do with it. In fact, I would argue that Harbaugh's issues as far as game plans and adjustments, as you mentioned, have more to do with his lack of experience on either side of the ball. Because of that, IMO, he relies on his coordinators too much, especially Cam. As a young HC, that's sort of understandable, but at some point, hopefully he outgrows that.
    Look, I'll admit it is heavy handed but too much success to soon in my opinion has doomed the franchise under Harbaugh. It is hard to win in the NFL, it was how Reid lasted so long. But I am not of that thought. I think a fire needs to be lit under John's ass. He is too comfy and this pathetic offense is proof.

    Outgrows? It's his 5th year! If he hasn't gotten a grip, he never will. In fact the his inexperience on offense and deffense is glaring now that both are failing.




  15. #75

    Re: So what exactly has this organization/coaching staff done in order to improve this offense?

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Silver View Post
    Look, I'll admit it is heavy handed but too much success to soon in my opinion has doomed the franchise under Harbaugh. It is hard to win in the NFL, it was how Reid lasted so long. But I am not of that thought. I think a fire needs to be lit under John's ass. He is too comfy and this pathetic offense is proof.

    Outgrows? It's his 5th year! If he hasn't gotten a grip, he never will. In fact the his inexperience on offense and deffense is glaring now that both are failing.
    Sorry, but I do believe coaches can learn and grow. Sometimes with the same team, like Cowher, sometimes after getting fired (Gruden, Belichick, etc). Whether Harbaugh can (or will) remains to be seen, but I don't think the possibility can be dismissed so easily.

    As far as lighting a fire under his ass, I would expect that to come if the O doesn't improve the rest of the way.
    Last edited by B-more Ravor; 11-08-2012 at 10:45 PM.
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