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  1. #1

    Leach versus Grubbs



    Big name and skill position players often receive most of the attention around the NFL and fans. However, I am fond of looking at some of the other positions and their impact upon the team. So for the bye week, a little "Monday Morning GM" here with a question...

    Now that you know about the shambles that our offensive line has been so far this season, if you could have chosen between Ben Grubbs or Vonta Leach, who would you have kept and who would you have let go this past off season?

    My (highly questionable) logic here. First off, I know the math isn't exactly right but it is close enough for arguments sake. Vonta Leach is costing us approximately $3.5 million per season. Bobbie Williams is making about $1 million per season or $4.5 million between the two. Ben Grubbs is making about $7 million per season with the Saints. This means that if Ozzie had jettisoned Leach and never signed Williams, he could have locked up a young, Pro Bowl guard for another $2.5 million per season, which is not a fortune in the NFL. Granted, Ozzie would have had to make some more "minor" moves to fit Grubbs under the cap but it would certainly have been within reach without Williams and Leach.

    In addition, getting back to my initial statement at looking how "other" players impact the team, I felt that Grubbs was one of the key components to our team last year and stated prior to this season that he would be missed more than people expected. Last year he was injured for 6-games which were arguably some of our least cohesive offensive games. Remember the Titans & Jags games? He missed those games. We were 4 & 2 without Grubbs which included our two worse offensive outputs of the season. We were 8 & 2 with Grubbs. (I know, rather simplistic but just saying and for those counting, we were 4 & 0 without Lewis).

    I love Leach and his work ethic but for my money, I would have preferred to lock up another Pro Bowl guard in Grubbs instead of a fullback who only plays half the offensive downs. IMHO the offense starts with the offensive line.

    What are your thoughts? Perhaps you could argue that Grubbs career in New Orleans has been less than stellar to date or Leach is the only positive in our running game (besides Rice of course)...
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  2. #2
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    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Ben Grubbs was always so overrated, and was only an average run blocker. Yes he was a good pass blocker, but I don't think he's worth the money that New Orleans are currently paying him. He was a solid pick by Ozzie, but his 3rd round pick that same year has been a better player than him and that's why they paid Yanda and not Grubbs.




  3. #3

    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    First of all, you can't compare 2 salaries vs one as we need 53 players. SO really you are talking Leach/Jacoby Jones/Williams vs Grubbs/2 UDFA's.
    Secondly, Grubbs was highly overrrated and thus overpaid by the Saints. Yanda was CLEARLY the better player their entire shared time here, and got paid less the year prior.

    I'm fine with letting him go despite our OL struggles.

    Great minds think alike Leach...




  4. #4
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    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    First of all, you can't compare 2 salaries vs one as we need 53 players. SO really you are talking Leach/Jacoby Jones/Williams vs Grubbs/2 UDFA's.
    Secondly, Grubbs was highly overrrated and thus overpaid by the Saints. Yanda was CLEARLY the better player their entire shared time here, and got paid less the year prior.

    I'm fine with letting him go despite our OL struggles.




  5. #5

    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Grubbs got overpaid by New Orleans, cut and dry.




  6. #6

    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Agree that Grubbs was overrated and not worth what he received from New Orleans. On the other hand...

    No disrespect to Mr. Leachisabeast, and clearly Leach is indeed a beast, but fullback is a dead position in the NFL and I don't think he's worth 3.5m. I love his physicality and he certainly improves the run game, but I don't think he fits the direction this team is going at all.

    So far in 2012, Ray Rice is only averaging 4.5 yards per carry out of the I-formation and 5.8 out of 3-wide sets. Statistically, Rice is running the football better WITHOUT Leach on the field than WITH. (stats from ProFootballWeekly's splits section)

    I think this needs to be a single-back offense that spreads you out and then hits you with the run. We can still be a Ray Rice-centric offense without being an I-formation, fullback friendly offense.




  7. #7
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    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    You really do bust my balls bmore lmao




  8. #8

    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    Agree that Grubbs was overrated and not worth what he received from New Orleans. On the other hand...

    No disrespect to Mr. Leachisabeast, and clearly Leach is indeed a beast, but fullback is a dead position in the NFL and I don't think he's worth 3.5m. I love his physicality and he certainly improves the run game, but I don't think he fits the direction this team is going at all.

    So far in 2012, Ray Rice is only averaging 4.5 yards per carry out of the I-formation and 5.8 out of 3-wide sets. Statistically, Rice is running the football better WITHOUT Leach on the field than WITH. (stats from ProFootballWeekly's splits section)

    I think this needs to be a single-back offense that spreads you out and then hits you with the run. We can still be a Ray Rice-centric offense without being an I-formation, fullback friendly offense.
    Not that I distrust your stats, but they may not be telling the whole story. How many of those 1 back runs were draws on 3rd and 18 for 11 yards, or similar situations...

    I don't believe in this passing league only the run game is dead nonsense. Wait until it gets cold. wait until the games matter more. Te F may nbe dying but that's an error in judgement by copycat GM's. Teams that can and will continue to run power football will win more often then not. Leach is a credible receiving threat, as well as short yardage runner besides being the overwhelming best run blocking fullback in football. He should be used MORE OFTEN IN PASS BLOCKING. Whiel it would be nice to have the same player, cheaper, he is the right fit for this team.




  9. #9

    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    You really do bust my balls bmore lmao
    In all seriousness, on talent alone Leach is one of the top players in the NFL. Even 10 years ago he would have been one of the most important players on any given offense. In fact he's even become more of a weapon in the passing game during his time in Baltimore, so he's still getting better even as a 9 year veteran.

    The game has just changed SO MUCH over the past few years, it doesn't look AT ALL like the football I watched and played as a kid, and I don't like it sometimes. You just don't win running the football anymore, yes you need to run to have some balance and to bleed time off the clock, but it's the Arena League now and the game is leaving the fullback position behind.

    There is a good argument though that in a 3rd and 4th quarter situation when the Ravens have the lead they need to be able to line up and run the football down the other team's throat and Leach does enhance that.




  10. #10

    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Not that I distrust your stats, but they may not be telling the whole story. How many of those 1 back runs were draws on 3rd and 18 for 11 yards, or similar situations...

    I don't believe in this passing league only the run game is dead nonsense. Wait until it gets cold. wait until the games matter more. Te F may nbe dying but that's an error in judgement by copycat GM's. Teams that can and will continue to run power football will win more often then not. Leach is a credible receiving threat, as well as short yardage runner besides being the overwhelming best run blocking fullback in football. He should be used MORE OFTEN IN PASS BLOCKING. Whiel it would be nice to have the same player, cheaper, he is the right fit for this team.
    Stats don't tell the whole story; you have to analyze them to get the truest picture. I haven't done that, and if I had more time I would. Addressing your specific example, Rice has not run the football in a 3rd and 6+ situation ONCE this season. 0 attempts. See for yourself http://www.profootballweekly.com/pla...300036/splits/

    I didn't say the run game was dead per se, any team in the NFL will always still need to run the football, but you are dead wrong that power running teams win more often than not in the NFL. The top rushing teams in the NFL were all sitting at home last year in ice cold January and February, but the top passing teams were still playing meaningful games.




  11. #11

    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post

    So far in 2012, Ray Rice is only averaging 4.5 yards per carry out of the I-formation and 5.8 out of 3-wide sets. Statistically, Rice is running the football better WITHOUT Leach on the field than WITH. (stats from ProFootballWeekly's splits section)

    I think this needs to be a single-back offense that spreads you out and then hits you with the run. We can still be a Ray Rice-centric offense without being an I-formation, fullback friendly offense.
    That's getting more to the heart of the matter: WDRRT(what does Ray Rice think)? Leach is a luxury only if Rice can still be Rice w/o Leach's blocking. I have noticed that Leach is getting a few more outlet passes this year. I want the ball in Ray Rice's hands 20-25 times a game, but if Leach can take some of the more routine open field hits on little dump-offs by Joe, it will extend Rice's career.
    Grubbs was solid and had the data that showed we struggled eary in the 2011 season when he was out, but he alone is not what's missing from the OL. Birk is a year older, the OT are still not sorted out. Oher should be at RT ideally, & there is no answer yet @ LT. McKinnie is past prime and [apparently] "not playing like a Raven; KO too green for LT (but would have been a better than stop gap solution to replace Grubbs if we had had an LT ready to go).




  12. #12
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    Re: Leach versus Grubbs

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    In all seriousness, on talent alone Leach is one of the top players in the NFL. Even 10 years ago he would have been one of the most important players on any given offense. In fact he's even become more of a weapon in the passing game during his time in Baltimore, so he's still getting better even as a 9 year veteran.

    The game has just changed SO MUCH over the past few years, it doesn't look AT ALL like the football I watched and played as a kid, and I don't like it sometimes. You just don't win running the football anymore, yes you need to run to have some balance and to bleed time off the clock, but it's the Arena League now and the game is leaving the fullback position behind.

    There is a good argument though that in a 3rd and 4th quarter situation when the Ravens have the lead they need to be able to line up and run the football down the other team's throat and Leach does enhance that.
    I started watching football because it was a physical sport and I started watching in the late 90's as a young kid and got hooked because it was a flat out physical era of football. That's why I play fullback/guard during the summers in the British football league, I love the concept of knocking guys over, that's what you get from playing rugby I guess haha.

    Football is like many other sports though today, they want to attract even more viewers, so they want the game to look more pretty on TV. It's like rugby over here, so many rules stop the game from being a slow more physical battle on the ground and less of a kicking game, and more of a throwing the ball about game.

    I hate it being a guy who loves all things violent and big hits.




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