Steelers woes continue

[Ravenswintitle]

Yeah lets keep it in perspective, it was a loss to a backup LB position. It sucks but every team deals with it

[Stealthbirds80]

Sorry, my hate is blind. Any other team I'll give a logical post, but not them. Blame it on the Steelers fans within my own family in which I have to defend my Ravens team from 365 days a year for the last decade and more. I'm a product of my environment and my brain cuts off. I pre-apologize for any future post concerning them. These boards are my therapy.

[purplepoe]

WTF?

The Steelers are 89-39 with two Super Bowl wins and a loss in the eight years with Roethlisberger, and there's an actual conversation going on about how they're not particularly good at drafting or evaluating talent and their eventual demise?

Yeah, I'd like it to be true to. But it's not. The Steelers are literally a model franchise. One of two in the league. It's okay to hate them. But at least be honest about them.

- C -

Watch out PSU!!!!

PP

[Boulderraven]

Season hinges on Harrison, Foote and weak secondary. Offense won't be that new with that line. Their basic chinese fire drill scramble plays on 3rd down is the offense still with the kind of talent on offense they have. No line, no rb's....improvisation by Ben.

[leachisabeast]

WTF?

The Steelers are 89-39 with two Super Bowl wins and a loss in the eight years with Roethlisberger, and there's an actual conversation going on about how they're not particularly good at drafting or evaluating talent and their eventual demise?

Yeah, I'd like it to be true to. But it's not. The Steelers are literally a model franchise. One of two in the league. It's okay to hate them. But at least be honest about them.

- C -

They have had a great draft history, but recently not so much.

Right now since 08 they only have four starters (5 if you count Mendenhall, who's hurt right now) on their team who they've drafted. In comparison, we are currently starting 11 players that we've drafted since 08.

Personally, I'm not buying all this crap that the Steelers are magically going to decline this year. From top to bottom, they still have one of the best teams in the NFL. But, I also think that they are not quite what they used to be a few seasons ago either.

[JAB1985]

Past success means squat this year. How many teams have made the SB lost and then not even made the playoffs the next year. Id say their main issues are no cap space to go after FAs they desire and injuries which have hit them hard but yeah id agree, they havent drafted as well as us or some other teams by comparison, but not many have our success. I wouldnt say theyre the worst drafters, more like average. As long as they have roethlisberger theyll be playoff contenders and regardless how good they are they always play us tough.

[leachisabeast]

And their biggest hits have been Antonio Brown in the 6th round, and Mike Wallace in the 3rd. Ziggy Hood is trash, honestly, last year he was getting thrown around like a rag doll, was probably one of the main reasons why their run defense wasn't as stout as usual. Maukrice Pouncey is solid, but no where near as good as the media like to say he is. Basically they have drafted next to nobody on defense who has been any good. I really liked that Sean Spence pick, but now he is out for the year, and mr average Larry Foote is going to take over that position.

Still, the Steelers are still going to compete for the AFCN, and another SB. Roethlisberger is a great QB nobody what anyone thinks on this board, and they still have a very good defense, regardless of age.

[psuasskicker]

They have had a great draft history, but recently not so much.

Right now since 08 they only have four starters (5 if you count Mendenhall, who's hurt right now) on their team who they've drafted. In comparison, we are currently starting 11 players that we've drafted since 08.

Personally, I'm not buying all this crap that the Steelers are magically going to decline this year. From top to bottom, they still have one of the best teams in the NFL. But, I also think that they are not quite what they used to be a few seasons ago either.

Not sure what you're defining as a starter, but this speaks more to their ability to draft well in the past and hold onto some key free agents than it does to their more recent abilities to draft. But mostly I have no idea how you're claiming we have 11 starters to their 4 here.

For us, I count Flacco, Rice, Oher, Webb, Pitta, Smith and I guess you can count one of Kruger/Kindle/Upshaw, but I wouldn't count two of them given Suggs being injured. More critically, we rotate guys a lot, which also happens to be what the Steelers do. So while we've got five '08+ draft picks at the DL/LB positions who will see a good bit of playing time this year, the Steelers have four of those as well, maybe five.

Since the '08 draft, the Steelers have gotten:
Two of the better WRs in the game in Wallace/Brown.
An extremely good C in Pouncey.
A serviceable starting RB in Mendenhall.
A mediocre DE in Hood (he's easily replaceable, but he was also not as terrible as you suggest).
What looks to be a very good DE/LB hybrid in Worlids.
A starter and nickle CB in Lewis/Allen.
A good blocking TE in Johnson.
Solid depth with Mundy/Sylvester/Sanders/Brown.
Not to mention what looks like a solid crop of draft picks this year, though no one knows how they will turn out yet (and DeCastro is done for a while due to injury).

I'm not sure what you think they should have gotten out of those draft picks, but just for comparison's sake, here's ours:
A franchise QB and RB in Flacco/Rice.
A mediocre-at-best OT in Oher.
An extremely good #1 CB in Webb.
What looks to be a mediocre to solid TE combo in Pitta/Dickson.
A so-far-good pass rushing specialist in McPhee.
Tons of mediocrity in the front seven between Kruger/Jones/Cody/Kindle.
A guy who hasn't shown much yet but hasn't disappointed in Jimmy Smith.
What looks to be a break-out WR in Torrey Smith.

That list looks better than the Steelers' list only because Flacco has turned out to be a good QB and Rice is WAY better than Mendenhall. But Wallace and Rice are about on par with each other (Rice gets an edge there) while Brown and Smith are on par with each other (Brown gets that edge), and the Steelers haven't needed to draft a franchise QB as they already did that, drafting Roethlisberger who is unarguably WAY better than Flacco. Take Flacco off the list and the two don't look a whole lot different from each other.

Now, I'm not arguing that the Ravens haven't done a better job in the draft since '08. But I also think that's a bit of a cherry-pick, given that Colbert has been their GM since '00, and if you jump back to another random year, such as '05, you've got Woodley, Heath Miller, Timmons, Colon, Kemoeatu, McFadden, Sepulveda and then a handful of guys no longer on their team such as Santonio Holmes and Gay. This list dwarfs our own of Ngata and Yanda, and then a whole lot of guys playing on other teams such as Landry, Brown, Grubbs, Chester and McClain.

So if you're wondering why the Steelers aren't starting too many players from the '08 - '11 drafts, it's because they did a WAY better job of finding starters in the '05 - '07 drafts than we did. And even if you could make the argument that they've done a pretty poor job drafting from '08 to '11 - which I don't honestly believe you can - given how poorly we drafted from '05 - '07, we still went 32-16 in the three years after that.

Hey, I'd like to see the writing on the wall for the Steelers, too. Roethlisberger's injuries are catching up with him. Polamalu is getting old and will be more likely to break down. Their defensive front seven doesn't seem to be the powerhouse it once was. Their OL may still be a mess. They don't have good RBs, and one of their receivers seems a bit disgruntled. But the reality is that they're still one of the best franchises in the NFL, and any down-turn they suffer isn't likely to last more than a year or two.

- C -

[leachisabeast]

Since the '08 draft, the Steelers have gotten:
Two of the better WRs in the game in Wallace/Brown.

Wont argue with this, Wallace is the top of the 2nd tier of WR's, could possibly break into the top 5 had he got extended, because now, I can see him giving up on some plays, and maybe not playing to his potential because he's pissed off with the team for not signing him, but still a very good WR no matter what. If the Steelers don't want to resign him, that's their look out, maybe they don't have the room. Antonio Brown is emerging as a very good WR, and could enter into the top ten this year, but somehow I see Torrey having more upside, so I can see Torrey having a better year than Brown in 2012. If Torrey can work on his routes and pass catching a little, Torrey could be as good as Mike Wallace.

An extremely good C in Pouncey.

I don't get all the buzz that this guy gets. I counted a bunch of plays against us last year, and he had much more negative plays than positives, and that was against Terrence Cody a lot of the time, who is a pretty average nose guard right now. He is a decent pass blocker, but his run blocking isn't great. I'd say Pouncey is a solid player but no where near as good as some would like to think. I think the Browns center, Alex Mack is better personally.

A serviceable starting RB in Mendenhall.

Mendenhall has been solid, but is no where near the class that Rice is in, as we all know. Shame about his injury, because I think he had potential this year to get better behind a so called improved offensive line (that was rammed down our throat all through the off season).

A mediocre DE in Hood (he's easily replaceable, but he was also not as terrible as you suggest).

Maybe he wasn't terrible, but he had some conditioning issues last year, and just didn't look good at all.

What looks to be a very good DE/LB hybrid in Worlids.

Huh? Since when is Worlids any good? He has Paul Kruger written all over him from what I've seen.

A starter and nickle CB in Lewis/Allen.

Need to see more of them before judging. Lewis is going to be a starter on the left corner spot this year.

A good blocking TE in Johnson.

Well yes, he's been a solid FB if anything. A big bruising type who offers something in the receiving game too. Isn't he done for this year btw?

here's ours:
A franchise QB and RB in Flacco/Rice.

Yup

A mediocre-at-best OT in Oher.

I still think Oher can get better than what he is right now, but IMO he isn't ever going to anything other than a RT. He showed that was a really good RT in his rookie year, but dropped off from there when he was switching between two positions. I think Oher is someone to watch out for if he turns out to be solid this year at RT, I think he could justify the draft pick we invested in back in 09 if he does that. Despite popular belief, if you see a RT who can be good in the NFL, you take him, even if it is in the first round. RT's still have to face some of the best pass rushers in the game in this day and age.

What looks to be a mediocre to solid TE combo in Pitta/Dickson.

Probably has potential to get better than that, I think either one could end up being one of the better TE's in the league.

A so-far-good pass rushing specialist in McPhee.

I bet the Steelers would have rather waited for the 5th round to use their pick on McPhee than drafting Hayward in the first round last year now. Hayward has shown NOTHING. McPhee has shown everything, and is looking like one of the biggest steals we've had for a long time now (apart from Webb.)

Tons of mediocrity in the front seven between Kruger/Jones/Cody/Kindle.

Pretty much.

A guy who hasn't shown much yet but hasn't disappointed in Jimmy Smith.

Apart from intercepting Brady in the AFCCG, which had Lee Evans made that catch, would have been looked back on one of the key plays of the game. Jimmy Smith has shown big play potential, and a lot more than most of the recent high draft picks by the Steelers have shown so far.

That list looks better than the Steelers' list only because Flacco has turned out to be a good QB and Rice is WAY better than Mendenhall. But Wallace and Rice are about on par with each other (Rice gets an edge there) while Brown and Smith are on par with each other (Brown gets that edge), and the Steelers haven't needed to draft a franchise QB as they already did that, drafting Roethlisberger who is unarguably WAY better than Flacco. Take Flacco off the list and the two don't look a whole lot different from each other.

What about Webb? The Steelers haven't drafted anybody on defense that comes anywhere near Webb since 08. They have done a good job drafting certain offensive players, but they have essentially drafted zero stars on defense lately. That was my main point. Oh and I wouldn't say Ben is WAY better than Flacco at this point. I'd like to see Ben do better on this offense with what we've had in terms of receivers since we drafted Flacco, and under the questionable play calling at times.

So if you're wondering why the Steelers aren't starting too many players from the '08 - '11 drafts, it's because they did a WAY better job of finding starters in the '05 - '07 drafts than we did. And even if you could make the argument that they've done a pretty poor job drafting from '08 to '11 - which I don't honestly believe you can - given how poorly we drafted from '05 - '07, we still went 32-16 in the three years after that.

In those years, we drafted Haloti Ngata, Ben Grubbs, Marshall Yanda, and Jason Brown. They did far from a better job than us. I'd take Ngata over any of those players they drafted, and Yanda has been a excellent guard for us, Grubbs was also great, and has sadly departed south and will be a big loss. Jason Brown was a quality center for us, and had the most dominant season in 2008 from any center I've seen ever playing for Baltimore. Yes, since he left us, he has turned into complete trash, but that doesn't really matter anymore. Santonio Holmes hasn't exactly sparkled the New Jersey Jets up has he.

Hey, I'd like to see the writing on the wall for the Steelers, too. Roethlisberger's injuries are catching up with him. Polamalu is getting old and will be more likely to break down. Their defensive front seven doesn't seem to be the powerhouse it once was. Their OL may still be a mess. They don't have good RBs, and one of their receivers seems a bit disgruntled. But the reality is that they're still one of the best franchises in the NFL, and any down-turn they suffer isn't likely to last more than a year or two.

Despite our disagreements about the personell difference on both teams, and their draft/FA history, we can both agree that the Steelers will be contenders as usual this year, anything below 9-7 would REALLY shock me, anything between 10 to 12 wins is what I expect from them, with the odd chance of finishing 9-7 because of the schedule, and the outside chance of Ben going down because of the Oline. But generally speaking, they will still be more likely to contend with us over the Bunguls. I think we can also agree that this team isn't what it used to be either, with ageing players on their front 7, next to zero legit running backs, and a woeful as usual offensive line.

[psuasskicker]

The reason I say the Steelers did far better than we did from '05-'07 is because most of the starters they got from that group are still with the team, while most of our have left. Brown was a good starter for us, but a bust with the Rams. Ngata, Yanda and Grubbs are the only other good players from that group. And while that's a reasonable crop, those draft years for us largely were not very good. Throw in '04 and it gets a WHOLE lot uglier. Still we came out of that stretch okay with only one down year with the five win '07 season.

If Roethlisberger and/or Polamalu goes down, all bets are off. But the again, same could be said of us between Rice and Suggs...who knows what will happen with us this year with our best defensive player out of the mix (we need Flacco to step up and get WAY better in a hurry). Those ends look pretty freakin' terrible so far...I think we may very well miss Suggs a lot more than people expect. And honestly, we face sort of a murderer's row of QBs this year...
Roethlisberger x2
Brady
Manning
Manning v2.0 (that's eight Super Bowl wins in those four guys)
Rivers
Schaub
Romo
Dalton x2

We need to be thankful we don't have Rodgers, Stafford or Brees in there...

- C -

[leachisabeast]

It definitely is VERY scary man, which is why I'm really surprised that we at least haven't looked at least bringing in a vet like Andre Carter or Shawn Merriman to compete, because our ends have looked so average. McClellan has looked like the best player, but he doesn't appear to be a pass rusher, looks to be more of a run stuffer/edge setter and should replace Jarret Johnson at least. Kruger needs to step up big time, because he's supposed to be out best pass rusher outside of Suggs.

[psuasskicker]

Kruger needs to step up big time, because he's supposed to be out best pass rusher outside of Suggs.

I think McPhee will be, but yeah, this scares the shit out of me.

- C -