McKinnie back at LT

**JAB1985** · 08-14-2012, 05:43 PM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

Agree to disagree is pretty much the only thing I agree with in that post.

Which is fine if you choose to ignore that young players progress and old players skills decline. I thought that was a known and accepted thing.

**BcRaven** · 08-14-2012, 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

Again, there is something to be said about experience and "knowing what you will get" with players. Rookies have hit walls and had their play stagnate as the season gets into the later weeks (we saw that here just last year with McPhee). It's not always a steady increase in play late in the year.

LOL, with using McPhee as an example. His rookie production, along with 6 sacks, is a bad case you've provided. AND I guess you don't think older veterans hit "walls" as the season progresses (?) When Bobbie Wms (36 in September) is sucking wind, in the 13th game of the season, KO (23 years old) will be a road grader... Bc

**lobachevsky** · 08-14-2012, 06:20 PM

I have a feeling Williams will start the season at LG in part because the opening game is against his former team (the Bungles) & he will have some incentive to show them they gave up on him too soon. I would guess they'd be hoping his play holds up through a tough first 3 weeks (CIN, @PHA, NE) & then start working KO into the mix around week 4 (CLE).

**jd345** · 08-14-2012, 06:56 PM

Great points by everybody and no way to know how this eventually shakes out for opening night against the Bengals. I choose to trust in the coaches on this one to put the best possible players on the oline for opening day based off what they are seeing in practices on a daily basis and the preseason games. The fact that we are even arguing over who should start at different positions on the Oline is a great thing...it means we at least have some depth.

**JAB1985** · 08-14-2012, 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by lobachevsky

I have a feeling Williams will start the season at LG in part because the opening game is against his former team (the Bungles) & he will have some incentive to show them they gave up on him too soon. I would guess they'd be hoping his play holds up through a tough first 3 weeks (CIN, @PHA, NE) & then start working KO into the mix around week 4 (CLE).

Good point and i forget our bye week at the moment but its early enough to conceivably be a good point to switch.

**JAB1985** · 08-14-2012, 08:27 PM

Originally Posted by lobachevsky

I have a feeling Williams will start the season at LG in part because the opening game is against his former team (the Bungles) & he will have some incentive to show them they gave up on him too soon. I would guess they'd be hoping his play holds up through a tough first 3 weeks (CIN, @PHA, NE) & then start working KO into the mix around week 4 (CLE).

also a good point. I think if nothing else we got deeper than last year.

**B-more Ravor** · 08-14-2012, 11:14 PM

I'm curious when and where everyone has seen KO play OG to be able to pronounce him to be better than Williams? Especially when he's never played Guard before?

Certainly, not saying he can't, but I think it's a bit early to pronounce him as starter-ready when he's had so little time there.

After all, Williams was signed during OTAs when it appeared that KO was apparently not exactly "wow-ing" the staff (at least according to Aaron Wilson). Again, the contract he signed was not the kind of deal you give a guy that you are signing for depth purposes.

Again, that's not to say that KO can't or won't win the LG job, but I just think it premature to claim, at this point, that he should start there now, with so little evidence that he's truly ready.

**Boulderraven** · 08-14-2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

They are tired of getting Joe killed with new guys missing assignments. They had the same problem last year. When McKinnie was able to play beside Grubbs, he didn't miss his assignments. When Grubbs went out with an injury, McKinnie didn't know his assignments.

Now, Gradkowski and Williams are the new guys. At least, KO can be placed between Birk and McKinnie, who now knows the system.

Exactly.

**leachisabeast** · 08-15-2012, 05:11 AM

Originally Posted by B-more Ravor

I'm curious when and where everyone has seen KO play OG to be able to pronounce him to be better than Williams? Especially when he's never played Guard before?

Certainly, not saying he can't, but I think it's a bit early to pronounce him as starter-ready when he's had so little time there.

After all, Williams was signed during OTAs when it appeared that KO was apparently not exactly "wow-ing" the staff (at least according to Aaron Wilson). Again, the contract he signed was not the kind of deal you give a guy that you are signing for depth purposes.

Again, that's not to say that KO can't or won't win the LG job, but I just think it premature to claim, at this point, that he should start there now, with so little evidence that he's truly ready.

Actually he played guard a little in college. Tackles transitioning to guard quite frequently excel at that position, especially when they are built like Osemele. Plus he played pretty well at right tackle, which is kind of similar to playing guard, the run blocking assignments are pretty similar, and he held up well against an athletic Falcons front 7.

Yeah I do agree with you that it's way too early to think that KO is the next Yanda, but so far he has probably been the most impressive drafted rookie in camp. Williams was signed before TC, so it's not like KO could do much to prove to the coaches that he is awesome playing guard when minimum contact was involved at the minicamps.

**bmorecareful** · 08-15-2012, 07:52 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Actually he played guard a little in college. Tackles transitioning to guard quite frequently excel at that position, especially when they are built like Osemele. Plus he played pretty well at right tackle, which is kind of similar to playing guard, the run blocking assignments are pretty similar, and he held up well against an athletic Falcons front 7.

Yeah I do agree with you that it's way too early to think that KO is the next Yanda, but so far he has probably been the most impressive drafted rookie in camp. Williams was signed before TC, so it's not like KO could do much to prove to the coaches that he is awesome playing guard when minimum contact was involved at the minicamps.

That all might be true, but he's impressed in TC playing at right tackle, not guard. There is no actual evidence on film to suggest KO performs at a high level at the guard position; there's more evidence that he performs well at the tackle position. Filmstudy went so far as to say he doesn't see why Osemele was projected as a "guard only" in the NFL based on his performance against Atlanta. When I watched him play, I saw a tackle playing tackle, not a guard playing tackle. That doesn't mean he won't play guard well, but why not just let him play tackle?

This team needs to put its best 5 offensive linemen on the field, and that means the best 5 this year and the best 5 long-term. The foundation of a good OL is unit cohesion; I have no interest in seeing one guy start half the season and another come in and relieve him. Why bother? We need to sort this out NOW, not later.

We know Oher, Yanda, and Birk are locked into starting spots. To me, the only question is McKinnie and KO. If this team believes McKinnie will play LT at a higher level than anyone else, then Oher plays RT and KO and Williams battle it out for LG. However, that's not optimal long-term--McKinnie is not a guy who will be on this team next year and it forces KO to learn a new position when he already looks capable at tackle, a more important position in any event. I think this team needs to figure out if they have a franchise LT on the roster.

The best long-term solution is a line with Oher and Osemele as bookend tackles. At that point, you'd need to find the best LG on the roster, whether that be Williams or someone else, and that position would need to be filled long-term by someone else. That solution would also require Oher to have improved significantly at LT, which by all accounts he has.

**JAB1985** · 08-15-2012, 07:59 AM

Originally Posted by bmorecareful

That all might be true, but he's impressed in TC playing at right tackle, not guard. There is no actual evidence on film to suggest KO performs at a high level at the guard position; there's more evidence that he performs well at the tackle position. Filmstudy went so far as to say he doesn't see why Osemele was projected as a "guard only" in the NFL based on his performance against Atlanta. When I watched him play, I saw a tackle playing tackle, not a guard playing tackle. That doesn't mean he won't play guard well, but why not just let him play tackle?

This team needs to put its best 5 offensive linemen on the field, and that means the best 5 this year and the best 5 long-term. The foundation of a good OL is unit cohesion; I have no interest in seeing one guy start half the season and another come in and relieve him. Why bother? We need to sort this out NOW, not later.

We know Oher, Yanda, and Birk are locked into starting spots. To me, the only question is McKinnie and KO. If this team believes McKinnie will play LT at a higher level than anyone else, then Oher plays RT and KO and Williams battle it out for LG. However, that's not optimal long-term--McKinnie is not a guy who will be on this team next year and it forces KO to learn a new position when he already looks capable at tackle, a more important position in any event. I think this team needs to figure out if they have a franchise LT on the roster.

The best long-term solution is a line with Oher and Osemele as bookend tackles. At that point, you'd need to find the best LG on the roster, whether that be Williams or someone else, and that position would need to be filled long-term by someone else. That solution would also require Oher to have improved significantly at LT, which by all accounts he has.

long term vs short term is really the question. I still dont see why we dont atleast try KO at LT. he could be the future there if Oher is and struggles again. so why not see if he can handle it.

McKinnie wont be with the team next year, but i dont think having your best LT, if only marginally, sit on the bench is a good idea either. it really comes down to what the team expects from KO, he was drafted as a G but maybe they do envision him playing T. maybe theres just not enough time in this offseason to figure that all out either.

**B-more Ravor** · 08-15-2012, 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by leachisabeast

Actually he played guard a little in college. Tackles transitioning to guard quite frequently excel at that position, especially when they are built like Osemele. Plus he played pretty well at right tackle, which is kind of similar to playing guard, the run blocking assignments are pretty similar, and he held up well against an athletic Falcons front 7.

Yeah I do agree with you that it's way too early to think that KO is the next Yanda, but so far he has probably been the most impressive drafted rookie in camp. Williams was signed before TC, so it's not like KO could do much to prove to the coaches that he is awesome playing guard when minimum contact was involved at the minicamps.

Yes, Tackles can transition well to Guard, but at this point, KO has seen very little time there. I'm not in any way saying that he won't be a great Guard long term, but at this point, I'm hard pressed to say that he's better than Williams now at Guard when there's very little evidence to support that.

Williams was signed during OTAs and immediately made the starter. KO was a little banged up at that point, but something made the FO believe they needed to bring in a veteran and give him that kid of contract at a time when they had precious little Cap space.

Now, since then, KO has impressed playing RT, no doubt, but because of the McKinnie issue, he hasn't seen a lot of time at Guard and until he does, I expect that Williams will continue - and should continue - to start .