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  1. #37
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    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    They need to get the regular refs backs soon. As much as everyone bitches about them they are pretty good overall. Fans bitch about holding calls and PI and the fan does not really now the rule.





  2. #38

    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    I read that the Refs are willing to become full time, but they want salaries in line with mid level to senior baseball umpires.

    They also would want a defined, quality pension plan as well as a couple other perks.

    I don't think many are raking in 500k plus at their regular jobs, although I'd think most are in the low 6 figure area.

    I think the Refs are being reasonable really...the NFL needs to stop being cheap and reward the best we have out there.





  3. #39
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    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    Just to add some math to the situation, consider:
    > 32 teams each play 16 games each season - thats 512 team-games, or 256 games
    >7 officials for each game - that's 1792 game officials needed each regular season
    > I think they have an extra guy available in case of an injury, so add 256 -- 2048 "game officials"
    > Assume the highest salary cited earlier in this thread for MLB umpires, at $141,000/year -- even if each NFL official earned $141K EACH GAME!, multiply that by 2048 and you get $288,768,000. That is not quite 3.25% of the $9 BILLION + the league grosses each season.

    >Assume the bottle of Cab Sauv that SWMBO and I split tonite, PLUS the three Molson Canadians I've had so far MAY have impaired my statistical analysis, but from what I know of private enterprise, it doesn't seem unreasonable to allot around 3-4% for an element of the game that is way more tham overhead and G&A.

    Why is it such a stretch to support the concept that the NFL officials should be full-time employees?





  4. #40

    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    I read that the Refs are willing to become full time, but they want salaries in line with mid level to senior baseball umpires.

    They also would want a defined, quality pension plan as well as a couple other perks.

    I don't think many are raking in 500k plus at their regular jobs, although I'd think most are in the low 6 figure area.

    I think the Refs are being reasonable really...the NFL needs to stop being cheap and reward the best we have out there.
    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/blog/ey...lse-misleading

    "The issues of 'full time' officials and additional officials have never been serious issues in the negotiations," the NFLRA wrote. "The NFLRA is not opposed to full time officials if they are fairly compensated. While the NFL has never made any compensation proposal, comparable positions in other professional sports at the 20 year level earn approximately $350,000 to $400,000 and are provided health insurance, a pension, time-off with pay and numerous other benefits."
    Assuming all of that is true (it is from the ref's counsel, so who knows), I don't think many people realize that this would constitute a pay increase of about 400% in salary alone.

    Now are they going to be working 4 days a week instead of 1?

    Then you get into full time and guaranteed pensions added on to that, for life, and we are talking about a MASSIVE amount of money.

    Easy to sit here and say just pay them, but when you start getting into fully guaranteed pensions and what not it isn't that simple.

    They are essentially trying to re design the entire structure of the relationship, that doesn't happen overnight. There is no platform to build off of or tweak like in most CBA negotiations, they are basically starting from the ground up if they make them full time.
    Last edited by TheJoeFlaccoShow; 08-19-2012 at 12:53 AM.





  5. #41
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    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    TJFS--
    My apologies, I'm uncertain where the NFLRA quote comes from, but for the moment, I'll accept that as a given.

    That being said, I'd be interested in the actual facts behind the part where 20 year officials earn 350-400K with health insurance, pension, PTO and numerous other benefits. I'd also be interested in what the NFLRA expects the pay scale to be for ALL of their officials, IFF they accept the concept of full-time officials. And by full-time, I would expect, as a consumer/paying fan, that I can enjoy the benefit of a fully trained, year-round officiating employee who is not moonlighting in another job. And I'd expect that the officials would have a rating/merit system that would provide upgrades for those who are superior officials, and a reasonable way to expel those officials who just ain't got it, regardless of tenure.

    Somehow, I fear that both the league AND the NFLRA don't want such a situation.





  6. #42

    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    3% of GROSS is a big number. 3% of NET would be a different story.

    Plus I am not sure officiating is as important as everyone is making it seem. Sure the game needs officials, but the value of the "old" officials is not related to the value of "officiating" in terms of the NFL product. The value of the "old" officials is relative to the difference in value/quality of the NFL product with the "old" officials and the value/quality of the NFL product with their cheaper substitute/replacement officials.

    And the difference frankly is not that much, imo. For one thing these 'scab' officials have had a couple games only, this is as bad as they will be and should improve. Secondly, their over-the-mic gaffes and more-frequent huddles or temporary confusion do not really affect the game. As for the important aspect, their on the field calls, I think there is a massive case of selection bias going on for the most part. People know the refs are scabs and they are overly sensitive to "blown" calls.

    The "old" refs blew plenty of calls every game. The scabs seem to blow plenty of calls every game. I do not see any really significant drop in quality of the games that is due to the refs (yet), other than the awkward moments of confusion and mic mangling (which, again, should get better and do not affect the outcome).

    I would definitely rather let these scabs ref the season than give in to the demands of a pampered, part-time, self-important, very-fallible group of officials.

    Obviously people disagree, but that is my opinion.





  7. #43
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    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    H-92--
    I think you make some valid points -- for example, I agree that one would expect the "new" officials to get better/more "accurate" over time.

    But I disagree that 3% of gross is an unrealistic number, and to clarify my earlier post, that was based upon assessing the annual MLB umpire salary to each NFL official for each game, not as an annual salary, so the % would drop significantly as a measure against gross.

    The other issue that I've whined about in the past is this - while I truly respect the efforts of those conscientious officials who put in the appropriate amount of time during the season, I honestly don't believe that a vast majority of them can fairly hold down a full-time yearly vocation while spending their "free time" during the season and play-offs training and working, and give a credible, consistent performance. These guys are expected to officiate arguably the best athletes in the world at playing professional American football, and IMHO, it takes more than someone spending approximately 6 months of the year not completely focused on the task, and the other 6 months of the year MAYBE focused on off-season training and conditioning.





  8. #44
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    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I would definitely rather let these scabs ref the season than give in to the demands of a pampered, part-time, self-important, very-fallible group of officials.

    Fuck 'em: I'd like to see the NFL break the union. If we have to tolerate a year or two of some slip-ups, it would be worth it.

    Keep in mind that the current batch of replacements refs were strewn together for exhibition season. If the NFL decides to lock out the refs for the entire season, they would poach some top-notch officials from the more senior college leagues.
    In a 2003 BBC poll that asked Brits to name the "Greatest American Ever", Mr. T came in fourth, behind ML King (3rd), Abe Lincoln (2nd) and Homer Simpson (1st).





  9. #45

    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    3% of GROSS is a big number. 3% of NET would be a different story.

    Plus I am not sure officiating is as important as everyone is making it seem. Sure the game needs officials, but the value of the "old" officials is not related to the value of "officiating" in terms of the NFL product. The value of the "old" officials is relative to the difference in value/quality of the NFL product with the "old" officials and the value/quality of the NFL product with their cheaper substitute/replacement officials.

    And the difference frankly is not that much, imo. For one thing these 'scab' officials have had a couple games only, this is as bad as they will be and should improve. Secondly, their over-the-mic gaffes and more-frequent huddles or temporary confusion do not really affect the game. As for the important aspect, their on the field calls, I think there is a massive case of selection bias going on for the most part. People know the refs are scabs and they are overly sensitive to "blown" calls.

    The "old" refs blew plenty of calls every game. The scabs seem to blow plenty of calls every game. I do not see any really significant drop in quality of the games that is due to the refs (yet), other than the awkward moments of confusion and mic mangling (which, again, should get better and do not affect the outcome).

    I would definitely rather let these scabs ref the season than give in to the demands of a pampered, part-time, self-important, very-fallible group of officials.

    Obviously people disagree, but that is my opinion.
    On point as always.

    You won't find many that agree with us though, that is for sure. Hating the replacement refs is all the rage these days, and the mob mentality has taken over.





  10. #46

    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Petard View Post
    H-92--
    I think you make some valid points -- for example, I agree that one would expect the "new" officials to get better/more "accurate" over time.

    But I disagree that 3% of gross is an unrealistic number, and to clarify my earlier post, that was based upon assessing the annual MLB umpire salary to each NFL official for each game, not as an annual salary, so the % would drop significantly as a measure against gross.

    The other issue that I've whined about in the past is this - while I truly respect the efforts of those conscientious officials who put in the appropriate amount of time during the season, I honestly don't believe that a vast majority of them can fairly hold down a full-time yearly vocation while spending their "free time" during the season and play-offs training and working, and give a credible, consistent performance. These guys are expected to officiate arguably the best athletes in the world at playing professional American football, and IMHO, it takes more than someone spending approximately 6 months of the year not completely focused on the task, and the other 6 months of the year MAYBE focused on off-season training and conditioning.
    3% of the gross becomes a huge chunk of the net. And yes, I realize you were taking it to an extreme to make your point, but I still am not sure I agree with the point. The other sports' annual salaries are based on way more games, so their per game compensation is a more realistic data point, not annual compensation.

    My problem with the (old) officials is that they are self-important. I realize the league itself is issuing a constant stream of nebulous "points of emphasis" and subjective safety-related new rules, but the established, old officials have become a group that imposes itself into the outcomes of games way more than they should.

    And this is primarily by OVER-calling fouls. And often huge fouls in crucial, game-changing situations.

    There are two kinds of "blown" calls. A missed call, and a made call that shouldn't have been made. The latter, to me, is way way worse than the former. Calling a phantom hold on Torrey Smith to negate a 70+ yard TD run in a huge game is unforgivable. Calling a roughing-the-passer on Suggs when his hand hits Kerry Collins' shoulderpad on a 3rd and 10 incompletion from the Tenn 20 with the score 10-6 and 6 minutes left in the game is unforgivable.

    There is simply no or not enough judgment used by NFL refs. There is no NFL-equivalent to the NBA's swallow the whistle down the stretch (so as not to affect the outcome). Missing a borderline or minor or away from the play holding call is way way less harmful to the game. Not calling a maybe-tap to the QB's head on a crucial drive-stopping incompletion; not calling a tickytack arm-jostling 50 yard PI in the 4th quarter of low-scoring game, etc etc, are all infinitely preferable to calling them. To me the refs operate in an "if-in-doubt-throw-a-flag" mode that is not needed (if keeping the game "fair" is the true goal of the officials, which it should be) and is not wanted (because it more often affects the outcome of games).

    I just hope that going forward there is some mechanism for poorly-graded officials to be weeded out of the process. And I hope that the afraid-to-call-attention-to-themselves scabs call less huge game-changing sketchy fouls, everyone realizes that this is the way the real refs should be officiating the games, and the league starts working to that end (by weeding out the refs that think their job is not to keep the game fair but rather to call any possible foul they can possibly justify, no matter how little/much it affected the play and no matter the game situation).

    <end rant>
    Last edited by Haloti92; 08-19-2012 at 01:20 AM.





  11. #47

    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    3% of the gross becomes a huge chunk of the net. And yes, I realize you were taking it to an extreme to make your point, but I still am not sure I agree with the point. The other sports' annual salaries are based on way more games, so their per game compensation is a more realistic data point, not annual compensation.

    My problem with the (old) officials is that they are self-important. I realize the league itself is issuing a constant stream of nebulous "points of emphasis" and subjective safety-related new rules, but the established, old officials have become a group that imposes itself into the outcomes of games way more than they should.

    And this is primarily by OVER-calling fouls. And often huge fouls in crucial, game-changing situations.

    There are two kinds of "blown" calls. A missed call, and a made call that shouldn't have been made. The latter, to me, is way way worse than the former. Calling a phantom hold on Torrey Smith to negate a 70+ yard TD run in a huge game is unforgivable. Calling a roughing-the-passer on Suggs when his hand hits Kerry Collins' shoulderpad on a 3rd and 10 incompletion from the Tenn 20 with the score 10-6 and 6 minutes left in the game is unforgivable.

    There is simply no or not enough judgment used by NFL refs. There is no NFL-equivalent to the NBA's swallow the whistle down the stretch (so as not to affect the outcome). Missing a borderline or minor or away from the play holding call is way way less harmful to the game. Not calling a maybe-tap to the QB's head on a crucial drive-stopping incompletion; not calling a tickytack arm-jostling 50 yard PI in the 4th quarter of low-scoring game, etc etc, are all infinitely preferable to calling them. To me the refs operate in an "if-in-doubt-throw-a-flag" mode that is not needed (if keeping the game "fair" is the true goal of the officials, which it should be) and is not wanted (because it more often affects the outcome of games).

    I just hope that going forward there is some mechanism for poorly-graded officials to be weeded out of the process. And I hope that the afraid-to-call-attention-to-themselves scabs call less huge game-changing sketchy fouls, everyone realizes that this is the way the real refs should be officiating the games, and the league starts working to that end (by weeding out the refs that think their job is not to keep the game fair but rather to call any possible foul they can possibly justify, no matter how little/much it affected the play and no matter the game situation).

    <end rant>
    Preach on brother!! Great post.

    Agree with every single word of it, hit the nail on the head.





  12. #48
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    Re: The REAL concern from Thursday...

    H-92--
    I hear you, and I'd say we're not far apart. I don't mean for anyone to construe my position as "in favor" of either the officials OR the league, OR, for that matter, the players -- IMHO, they are all so fookin' greedy, it boggles the mind. At $141K, that equates to nearly 9 grand a game for a 16 game schedule. Even adding in 4 pre-season games, that still gives them a tidy $7K+ each game, so I'm not worried about these guys feeding their families ala Sammy Adams! ;) And I suspect they get travel expenses, so IMO they're fairly well-compensated as it is.

    Some of my major complaints mirror yours - the made calls that should not have been, which I think goes to "Let them play" instead of the ticky-tack, inconsequential crap, or weeding out the egregiously poor officials who obviously have no business being on the field. But I feel like I've seen way too many guys that are NOT in physical condition to keep up with play from world class speedsters, or guys who are way out of position to make a call. I also think back over the past dozen or so seasons, and there were too many instances of officials literally either not knowing the correct rules interpretation or how to apply it, or making a call (I think in a playoff game) where they announced their logic for either calling or not (can't remember) an ineligible player downfield or something like that which was critical in the outcome of who won the game and passed through to the next level. And the problem at that time, IIRC, was that the league comes out later and says, "Yeah, that was the wrong call....sorry!"

    I don't think there is a moral high ground on any of their parts in this, but I think that it would be penny wise and pound foolish not to seriously move towards full-time- year-round officials whose primary vocation is to officiate NFL games, elevate the physical standards for them, and have them train like the players do - classwork, seminars, clinics, physical conditioning sessions, etc. Then, create standards of performance that allow the league and the NFLRA to identify those guys who can't pass muster, whether they're newbies or 20 year vets who've lost their edge.





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