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  1. #76
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)



    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    That's just salary. They also want huge pension increases. Why they should get a pension for a part time job is beyond me. Pat Kirwin was saying that the refs proposal would give them higher pensions than the players.
    That's a good point.

    So now add on even more potential costs that will get passed on to the fans.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  2. #77
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    That's just salary. They also want huge pension increases. Why they should get a pension for a part time job is beyond me. Pat Kirwin was saying that the refs proposal would give them higher pensions than the players.
    Great point...added to HoustonRaven's first-class post(s). IMO the NFL doesn't want to deal with the refs, letting things get completely out of hand with every contract, like MLB does with the players association. Keeping the refs as part-timers, they (NFL) can keep some sort of control on costs, just like they are doing with draftees. While some fans are saying "I don't mind paying 7 or 8 bucks more", I wonder how they'll feel paying 40 - 50 dollars more in future... Bc




  3. #78
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by BcRaven View Post
    Great point...added to HoustonRaven's first-class post(s). IMO the NFL doesn't want to deal with the refs, letting things get completely out of hand with every contract, like MLB does with the players association. Keeping the refs as part-timers, they (NFL) can keep some sort of control on costs, just like they are doing with draftees. While some fans are saying "I don't mind paying 7 or 8 bucks more", I wonder how they'll feel paying 40 - 50 dollars more in future... Bc
    Just a small caveat to my points ....

    The NFL WANTS full time officials, so they not averse to spending a little money on that front. Ideally, they'd like to start with one full time ref per crew, making something commensurate to what the MLB umpires make (approx $115,000 a year) then eventually phasing in all of them as full time refs.

    What they desperately DO NOT want is what the NFLRA is proposing -- going full time, but salaries that compensate their loss of their outside of football full time jobs. Many of these refs have highly lucrative jobs away from football so they'd like their NFL salaries to go from $70,000 (which is the max) a year to upwards of $300,000 a year.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  4. #79
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Petard View Post
    IMHO, "smart, prudent business owners" have been known to absorb costs. And I think they do tend to maximize profits, but usually within a sensible business model. Mr. Bisciotti and the other owners can whine all they want about how the cost of doing business rises each season, but I'd be willing to bet they have folks on their staffs that assess stuff like the "increased ticket price" line across which they do not want to cross lest they start seeing reduced sales.
    We will have to agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Beau Petard View Post
    On yours and jd's comments, I have to ask for your opinions on why the NFLRA thinks that in the real world, a guy should be able to demand and receive the sweetheart deal that you describe in Hoculi's example? I may be overlooking the obvious (and that's often par for my game!), but why would not the NFL just hire "new" guys to officiate under a "fair" compensation system and tell the current batch of moonlighters, "See ya, thanks, and best wishes at your other full-time job?"
    They cannot simply fire the officials because they are in a union, thus covered under the laws of the NLRB. You cannot fire workers that you, as an owner, are locking out.

    As for the deal they seek, I don't see the NFL caving at all, nor should they. The league has a chance to finally make better an officiating system that's woefully lacking compared to the other major sporting leagues. If that means digging in and playing a few games with replacement refs, I think they are prepared to do so.

    We, as fans, are not going to like it much. Games are going to be decided on bad calls for the first few weeks. Some teams will benefit, some will suffer.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #80

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    It looks like gamesmanship on the part of the referees. I suspect they are prepared to drop the demand for a pay increase, or the demand to remain part time, but it *really* looks from the outside looking in like they are not really at the bargaining table.

    Not nearly as interesting as the NFLPA work stoppage was.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  6. #81
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Houston-
    I confess I have not taken time to read substantial amounts about the entire NFL-NFLRA conflict, but you posted --

    "The NFL WANTS full time officials, so they not averse to spending a little money on that front. Ideally, they'd like to start with one full time ref per crew, making something commensurate to what the MLB umpires make (approx $115,000 a year) then eventually phasing in all of them as full time refs.

    What they desperately DO NOT want is what the NFLRA is proposing -- going full time, but salaries that compensate their loss of their outside of football full time jobs..."

    Notwithstanding our agreement to disagree on the cost absorption business model, I think we violently agree on the other issues!




  7. #82

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    If anyone could be so kind to cut and paste Peter Kings tweets from tje past hour, you will see what the real issues are and who is being difficult. I am on my phone and can't do it.

    Seems that they had a deal, until the ref rep squashed it at the last second.

    Also seems the main issue is the pensions, not salary. I think someone mentioned that on this thread earlier. Oh and the league gave up another million in salary as well, before the union lawyers killed it




  8. #83

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    I think the NFLRA backed out of the old demands (and raised them) because they were encouraged by the media-fueled criticism of the replacement refs. They keep hearing the new refs are a disaster, they think their bargaining power will increase when these "disasters" occur in regular season games, and they are willing to bet on that chance.

    Personally, I think they are wrong (about the extent of the "disaster"), but it also depends on the media. The media normally gives the refs a pass (the old refs), probably because harping on their mistakes undermines the game (which is their livelihood). But with replacement refs, when the media harps on mistakes, it undermines only the replacement refs (and the league's stance in the labor battle), not the whole game (if it were only played under the old refs, etc).

    I think the replacement refs are not affecting the outcomes of the games any more than the old refs (and probably even less), but the sample size of games I have seen is very small. I think they are certainly adding delays (sorting spots and calls etc), and screwing up the over-the-mic explanations. But those things should improve over time.

    It will interesting to see who gives in once the season starts. But the NFLRA, with its latest shenanigans, probably just made the league more determined to stand pat.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 09-02-2012 at 02:11 PM.




  9. #84
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    I don't twitter, tweet, or twat, but this link has some information as well as an interview with Scott Green, the NFLRA prez. From the link -
    "On Sunday, Peter King of SI.com reported on Twitter that he had received a memo from the NFL. The memo was sent to all 32 teams, and it outlined the league's version of the details of that negotiation.

    According to King, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell and NFLRA negotiator Jeff Triplette hammered out the particulars of a deal last Thursday and Friday that would give the officials an additional $1 million per year. At that point, NFLRA President Scott Green walked in the room, said that Triplette had "no authority" to broker a deal, and the talks came to a close."

    This all sounds a little brassiere to me....

    footnote: Just saw this piece with more info.




  10. #85

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Been out of this thread for quite a while but will jump back in...in 2011 the NFL revenue was 9 billion dollars. That is 1 million dollars 9,000 times over. If we give the refs the raise they want that would equal approximatley 100 million dollar (wont go into now, but includes raises, pensions, etc...) per year and to be honest and i'm erroring on the high side of what it will be. That raise represents 1/90th of the "pie." It is sick money, and we would all love to make that kind of money...but are they being unreasonable? I argue that if we have replacement refs that in five years from now they will demand the same money. Put yourself in the shoes of the regular refs...just like a player (and probably not as easily replaced) would you not hold out? You have the supply, the NFL has the demad, they are currently paying you 1/200 of the yearly revenue and you are the cream of the crop as far as refs are concerned. Personally, I just want a fair game called, I could care less who does it. But, in my opinion, there are only a select few who can do it. Pay them and lets get on with the season. GO RAVENS>




  11. #86
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    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    jd--
    I'm afraid some folks find my views to be in favor of one side or the other, but my concern is that neither side has altruistic motives. What I find troubling is that the NFLRA seems to be more concerned about covering the collective asses of their lesser-performing members, and the league seems to be pinching pennies until Lincoln squeals!

    One of my basic thoughts on why the officials should go full time and NOT get ridiculous amounts of money is, there needs to be a more effective and timely way of culling those guys who just aren't "good" officials. At the same time, the league needs to cough up a little of the largesse they have in a show of good faith that they want to put the best quality product on the field that they can.

    I can understand the league not wanting to "favor" the officials with a more attractive pension plan than they offer to the other "regular" employees. And I understand guys who are looking to make NFL officiating a full-time career. But I see and hear an awful lot of political bullshit/smoke floating into the debate from both sides in order to line their respective pockets, with little or no concern for the fans OR the "integrity" of the game.

    Bottom line is, this is pretty much the same kinda horseshit conflict I hear when players, their agents and teams start whining in the media about how much/little a contract is.




  12. #87

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    From Peter King MMQB...

    The pension part of the negotiations, I'm told, is a non-starter for the league. The large majority of full-time NFL employees have 401k-based pensions, not the defined-benefit pensions the officials have now, and the league wants to change over to the 401k model. The NFL doesn't want part-time employees, many of whom have pensions at their other jobs, to have a better pension system than full-time NFL

    "If the officials would drop their pension demand -- that the current officials be grandfathered in to the more advantageous pension plan, while newly hired officials would have 401k pensions -- this dispute would probably end quickly."
    Last edited by TheJoeFlaccoShow; 09-03-2012 at 08:58 PM.




  13. #88

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    Quote Originally Posted by jd345 View Post
    Been out of this thread for quite a while but will jump back in...in 2011 the NFL revenue was 9 billion dollars. That is 1 million dollars 9,000 times over. If we give the refs the raise they want that would equal approximatley 100 million dollar (wont go into now, but includes raises, pensions, etc...) per year and to be honest and i'm erroring on the high side of what it will be. That raise represents 1/90th of the "pie." It is sick money, and we would all love to make that kind of money...but are they being unreasonable? I argue that if we have replacement refs that in five years from now they will demand the same money. Put yourself in the shoes of the regular refs...just like a player (and probably not as easily replaced) would you not hold out? You have the supply, the NFL has the demad, they are currently paying you 1/200 of the yearly revenue and you are the cream of the crop as far as refs are concerned. Personally, I just want a fair game called, I could care less who does it. But, in my opinion, there are only a select few who can do it. Pay them and lets get on with the season. GO RAVENS>
    Going back to this thread...think it is a little different than the merged thread on the officials in that it deals with the monetary demands of the "real" refs but mods feel free to merge it in if you feel it is warranted. In the preseason many argued that they would have a "small effect" on the game and it was time to show the full time refs that they were replaceable. Back to gool ol' supply and demand.. I was at our game this week in Philly (and haven't missed a home game since we got our team back in Baltimore) and have never seen such a cluster **** of a game called...you know it is bad when you are sitting around Eagles fans and you actually start to share the same viewpoints as they are bitching about how pathetic it is...almost a 4 hour regulation game we played with "chaos" on the field. Watching Monday night football and it is anything but a train wreck from an officating standpoint. Game itself, not bad, officiating, laughable. Almost 11 o'clock and we are barely into the second half...not only can they not get the calls right that are deciding the outcomes of games but the speed of the game is slowing greatly. Point is...many people said the regular refs are easily replaceable...they sucked anyway. We are starting to see what really "sucking" at officiating actually entails. The players are picking up on it as are the coaches...these games are going to get uglier as the season progresses as are the calls in my opinion...these refs will start losing control of the games more than they are already as the players and coaches learn to take advantage of their incapability to call a game. Supply and demand...the regular refs blew calls here and there, no doubt, but they are the best in the business and their services are not easily replaceable. I gave the monetary figures above to get the deal done. Will gladly have my season ticket prices raised 1/90th (2 a game) to get the "real" refs back. Will they blow calls...sure will...will we gripe about them...sure will...but nothing like this, this is painful to watch. Sorry about the rant, and mods merge this into the other thread if you want, but pay these guys and lets play NFL football the way it was meant to be played. End of rant GO RAVENS




  14. #89
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    Well put jd, I hope they get back to negotiating. This is like watching football in the 80s
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  15. #90

    Re: Referee Lockout (Merged)

    I hope the league stands pat, but that it does something to address the players and coaches from taking advantage of the situation. If the players (and coaches) riot uncontrollably because they feel they "can" without consequence, then the league needs to either a) order the new refs to start ejecting people on a zero-tolerance basis, and/or b) start fining players and coaches for their outbursts.

    These administration delays will reduce over time, and if all the after-the-play rioting is also addressed, the delays will become less of an issue.

    There are way less bad "calls" than people claim, but there certainly is plenty of (too many) delays and minor yardage mistakes.

    The worst mistake made in terms of affecting the outcome was the BS ruling that the Falcons recovered Moreno's fumble. The Broncos jumped on it and they came out with it, and from the replay I didn't see any point where a Falcon had it. A ticky-tack holding and a ticky-tack/phantom PI along with that egregious mistake on the fumble are the only real mistakes in terms of calls. As of 5 minutes ago.




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