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  1. #133
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    Jul 2011
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    Re: Gaither Back Spasms



    Yup that mountain is paid for by Gaither and Drew R.

    Not the TEAMS. RED FLAG




  2. #134

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    So you thinkt he doctor simply talked to him and that's what he made his diagnosis from? You don't think he even examined the man?
    I never said he wasn't examined, in fact I said the opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    what I'm saying is that when you twist or contort a man's back, you have to trust when he says "ow".
    You don't "have to" anything, but obviously a doctor should assume the patient wouldn't fabricate symptoms, and obviously a doctor, even if he believed the patient were fabricating symptoms, would never tell the patient he thought they were fabricating. So again, this only proves my point, which is: in either case, Jared is actually hurt or Jared just wants to be considered hurt to avoid practice, the diagnosis will be the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    If his pattern of 'ow" is consistant with that of one of many other cases the doctor has seen, then he can say something is wrong with it.
    He can say something is wrong with it even if the pattern is inconsistent with all other cases. What would be the rationale for calling Jared a liar? That said, I am sure the "ows" are consistent with some possible ailment, even if the "ows" occur every time the back moves in any direction. Again, this is irrelevant.
    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Not all back problems will show up on an MRi, that is pretty well known.
    Of course it is. But as the injury becomes more serious it is more likely to show up on an MRI. A back injury claimed by a player with established problems in the work ethic department that requires multiple months off and shows no sign of getting better despite the world's best treatment is what we are talking about here.
    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Can he be milking it? SUre, but to assume that you know for sure there is NOTHING wrong with him because the raven's doctors didn't see anything on an MRI is patently ridiculous.
    I have never said I "knew" he had NOTHING wrong with him. I have always made this a debate about likelihoods based on evidence. I have always included the possibilty that Gaither is milking, to me it is basically the same thing. In fact, I only respond when people say they know he isn't faking because "worlds leading specialists" have "diagnosed" the injury. But as you have just stipulated that he could be milking, I have nothing to argue about.

    As I have said before, I think the evidence we have (or do not have) better supports the theory that Jared is doing all he can to avoid practice, and is certainly not doing all he can to get back to practice, and this involves him persistently claiming he is too injured to practice. The alternative, that he is really a hard working guy who has always enjoyed practice, but has a very rare, impossible-to-find major injury, that refuses to heal, that is at its worst when practice is taking place, that is at its best when he needs to look for a new contract, that shows no signs of improvement after weeks and weeks of treatment, etc, is much less supported by the evidence (even if it is possibly the case).




  3. #135
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    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Ahh the Gaither games...thank God the Ravens don't have to deal with his crazy ass anymore.




  4. #136

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    As I have said before, I think the evidence we have (or do not have) better supports the theory that Jared is doing all he can to avoid practice, and is certainly not doing all he can to get back to practice, and this involves him persistently claiming he is too injured to practice. The alternative, that he is really a hard working guy who has always enjoyed practice, but has a very rare, impossible-to-find major injury, that refuses to heal, that is at its worst when practice is taking place, that is at its best when he needs to look for a new contract, that shows no signs of improvement after weeks and weeks of treatment, etc, is much less supported by the evidence (even if it is possibly the case).


    Or, there is another alternative as I present it.
    He has a semi-major intermittent problme with his back, that he milks to get out of practice. I'm not going to try and say he is a hard worker when he is not. I'm not claiming he isn't lazy when we know he is. I'm just saying the chances this is ALL a figment of his imagination isn't that likely.




  5. #137

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensDomination View Post
    Ahh the Gaither games...thank God the Ravens don't have to deal with his crazy ass anymore.
    I just wish he was a healthy and motivated Human being, because when he is, he would be BY FAR the best option for this team at LT, and it's not even remotely close.

    It's too bad, that a lack of motivation, coupled with a dodgy back has wrought havoc on his career. what a waste of talent and ability.


    Every argument I EVER made for the dude included the "healthy and motivated" caveat. which appears to happen as often as a cowboys playoff victory these days. Where most people depart my company is that I still hold the ravens FO/coaching staff PARTIALLY accountable for the disappearance of THAT Jared Gaither.




  6. #138
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
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    Again, all this minutiae on his "injury" and nothing from his supporters about his long history of dogging it.

    Convenient.

    Look, it's either he's been a lazy POS or has a legit, serious back issue.

    Either way, it's great he's gone.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #139

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Again, all this minutiae on his "injury" and nothing from his supporters about his long history of dogging it.

    Convenient.

    Look, it's either he's been a lazy POS or has a legit, serious back issue.

    Either way, it's great he's gone.
    umm really? read my posts... I think I'm the only one supporting him and I jsut called him a lazy unmotivated waste of talent and ability....

    And it's NOT jsu teither/or. He could very well be a Lazy/POS with a serious back injury. whatever the case, we can all agree he is wasting the prime of his very promising career on the sidelines. In his current state of phsical and mental health, even I wouldn't want him back. Healthy and motivated? the majority of the league would want him at LT. May never happen again, but it might...




  8. #140

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Or, there is another alternative as I present it.
    He has a semi-major intermittent problme with his back, that he milks to get out of practice. I'm not going to try and say he is a hard worker when he is not. I'm not claiming he isn't lazy when we know he is. I'm just saying the chances this is ALL a figment of his imagination isn't that likely.
    It doesn't really matter if it ALL is a figment of his imagination. All that matters is that Gaither is saying he is too hurt to practice when he is not. Whether his back feels perfectly fine and has never ever been hurt, or it feels fine but used to hurt, or feels slightly sore everytime he works out doesn't matter (to me), they all mean he is refusing to practice when he should.

    I do think the evidence points away from the intermittent problem because he doesn't even come back every few days/weeks and he shows no sign of improvement in the meantime (despite fully resting it and getting max treatment). There is never any timetable on a return. "Rest until it feels better" is normally a short-term solution, and it normally involves a gradual improvement until the return. Gaither is in long-term absence mode, and does not make any progress towards a return. He is in "check with me and maybe I'll go today" mode, where the team cannot even vaguely make any plans for his return.

    I guess I would say your alternative (slightly or occasionally milking) is obviously possible, but I think the evidence somewhat belies that alternative as well.

    I also think there is no chance we are going to get the Chargers real feelings on the situation for the same reason we didn't get the Ravens real feelings on the issue while Gaither was here (and only got hints afterwards). As long as they are stuck with him and he has a future there, they will never publicly (or even privately) question his injury or work ethic; it wouldn't help and would very likely make things drastically worse.




  9. #141

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    See, but how many people with major back problmes, EVER get better... Serious back problmes seem to be lifetime ailments that come and go, and even major surgeries don't SEEM to fix the problem forever. At least anyone I know with chronic back issues, at least have those issues on and off forever.

    A back isn't like a knee... it's not all black and white, and in fact it's more like always gray...




  10. #142

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I just wish he was a healthy and motivated Human being, because when he is, he would be BY FAR the best option for this team at LT, and it's not even remotely close.

    It's too bad, that a lack of motivation, coupled with a dodgy back has wrought havoc on his career. what a waste of talent and ability.


    Every argument I EVER made for the dude included the "healthy and motivated" caveat. which appears to happen as often as a cowboys playoff victory these days. Where most people depart my company is that I still hold the ravens FO/coaching staff PARTIALLY accountable for the disappearance of THAT Jared Gaither.
    I agree. They should have found a way to keep him working hard on the field between tokes. And the Chargers figured he would live in CA also known as little amsterdam without getting a medical mj card?




  11. #143

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    See, but how many people with major back problmes, EVER get better... Serious back problmes seem to be lifetime ailments that come and go, and even major surgeries don't SEEM to fix the problem forever. At least anyone I know with chronic back issues, at least have those issues on and off forever.

    A back isn't like a knee... it's not all black and white, and in fact it's more like always gray...
    Most healthy people with major back injuries get better. Most back injuries can be objectively diagnosed assuming expense is no object. In most cases, expense is an object in treating back injuries. Most "chronic" cases of back problems are a result of neglected treatment (failing to strengthen the area, failing to lose weight), old age (disc degeneration, osteoporosis), and are relatively minor (in terms of the level of debilitation) even if painful.

    I obviously agree that the back is more grey than a knee, which is why a mysterious back injury makes more sense than a mysterious knee/foot injury if one is going to use mysterious injuries to avoid practice.

    Again, I am dealing with probabilites not possibilities. Sure Gaither could have an extremely rare, debilitating, back aliment/disease/syndrome that does not show up on scans and does not respond to rest or money-no-object treatment. Maybe when they figure out what it is they will name it after him.

    But I put these odds below the odds that an established-as-lazy player is simply not interested in practice/work, and, since he cannot simply sit out without explanation (at least not without losing his paychecks), said player is claiming he is seriously injured to get out of the practice/work.

    Obviously you assess the evidence and odds differently. No worries, we agree to disagree.




  12. #144

    Re: Gaither Back Spasms

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Most healthy people with major back injuries get better. Most back injuries can be objectively diagnosed assuming expense is no object. In most cases, expense is an object in treating back injuries. Most "chronic" cases of back problems are a result of neglected treatment (failing to strengthen the area, failing to lose weight), old age (disc degeneration, osteoporosis), and are relatively minor (in terms of the level of debilitation) even if painful.

    I obviously agree that the back is more grey than a knee, which is why a mysterious back injury makes more sense than a mysterious knee/foot injury if one is going to use mysterious injuries to avoid practice.

    Again, I am dealing with probabilites not possibilities. Sure Gaither could have an extremely rare, debilitating, back aliment/disease/syndrome that does not show up on scans and does not respond to rest or money-no-object treatment. Maybe when they figure out what it is they will name it after him.

    But I put these odds below the odds that an established-as-lazy player is simply not interested in practice/work, and, since he cannot simply sit out without explanation (at least not without losing his paychecks), said player is claiming he is seriously injured to get out of the practice/work.

    Obviously you assess the evidence and odds differently. No worries, we agree to disagree.


    The gap between our opinions has narrowed, so i guess successful discussion was found.

    I'm not sure why he would voluntarily sit out of games though, which appears possible if not probable.
    I would buy that his recurring back problems could be due tocontinued poor conditioning. It could even be his stomach muscles are too weak, and he hasn't put the effort into remedying that.

    I don't think it has to be that "mysterious" though. They are calling it spasms, as in muscular issues, which could easily be fleeting and hard to diagnose/find. I guess i jsut don't find it odd that a 6'9" 350 lb young man that pounds on his body for a living and is NOT known for being a gym rat and is known for being lazy has chronic back issues.




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