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Thread: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
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There's a lot of ego going on but I bet he ends up playing for Pitt this season.
His agent has to see they're running out of options and sitting out the year is very risky
The team may be able to get a 2nd at best but he would be more valuable in that offense this year.
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
youve already admitted the game goes beyond statistics but continue to use statistics as the end all be all, yet also claim that they arent. youve already said hes not as big and not as physical, but yet claim hes better in every aspect. you say marshall lacks by having a bad QB the last two years but then only use those last two years to go by. to me youre a continuous contradiction and quite frankly your argument means nothing to me because of your attitude despite its bias nature. you continue to see things your way, ill continue to see them mine.
-JAB
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07-29-2012, 10:31 PM #63Regular 1st Stringer
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
The highest tender is a 1st round pick now there is no more 1st and 3rd round tender.
The 49ers were thinking about signing him to an offer sheet because they needed another WR to go along side Crabtree and had a late 1st round pick. I dont believe they would have signed him though as 1st rd picks are so valuable these days. as the cap hit even if less than fitz money would be to much and the 49ers will have to pay players in 2013 and 2014 and will need space.
yes, some players get 1st round picks for them near their deal or under the tag but those are usually top 5 at their position. Wallace is not in that catagory. The cowboys made a stupid trade for williams and seattle giving a 1st for branch was even worse, they were a desprate team looking for any player.
No team will give a 1st for wallace, he is not a top 5 WR some people may say he is not top 10. I have him around 8-9. Plus the teams know Pitt has little leverage an cant sign him due to the lack of cap space. Plus he wont get Fitz money anywhere.
He will play for pitt this year as his value will drop if he sits the year out. Either way he wont be there in 2013 and they wont get a 1st for him even under the tag (which they cant use due to cap space). Either way this will be a holmes like situation. Holmes was in his prime when they traded him and they could have gotten a 2nd for him in my view.
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07-29-2012, 10:52 PM #64
Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
Jab - You realize you have yet to actually make an argument for why Marshall is a better receiver than Wallace? So far all you've tried to do is tell me why my argument doesn't prove Wallace is better, you haven't bothered to say why Marshall is. At least, not with anything factually accurate (Steelers are a passing-heavy offense, for example).
Benny, argue exceptions to the top five players by position getting 1st round picks traded for them all you want.
a) It's not particularly true.
b) It's beside the point. The point is, first round picks are traded for guys that need new contracts, not - as you claimed - guys that are in the middle of a sensible contract.
c) Still waiting for you to prove me wrong on b.
So far I'm hearing a lot of "Man, that Wallace guy sucks" and "Man, the dude can only run one route." No one here is actually bothering to put together reasoning for how Wallace is NOT one of the top receivers in the game. Top five, top ten, who friggin' cares. He's better than Antonio Brown and he's better than no less than 95% of the other WRs in this league. When he gets a new deal, he's going to be paid as such, cause that's what he deserves. Take your blinders off to the fact that the Steelers have one of the best receivers in the NFL, and be thankful that it looks pretty likely they're not going to have him for a whole lot longer.
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
Comparing Marshall to Wallace is silly IMO.
Apples & Oranges IMO.
Marshall, from a style of play stance, compares much more favorably to guys like Larry Fitzgerald, Anquan Boldin, Plaxico Burress, etc.
Mike Wallace should be compared to guys like Steve Smith, Victor Cruz, etc.
Both guys can absolutely dominate a game.Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
first off, 1.5/1 ratio is a passing heavy offense. im not sure where you draw the line, but anything over 1/1 is pass heavy technically, and a 60-40 split is certainly a pass first offense. or in other words factually accurate.
secondly this is what you responded to by throwing about a ton of numbers and calling them proof for the next 2 pages.
Marshall is better than wallace. when he has a qb that can throw even remotely decent hes a top wr by ability. Both have inconsistency with hands. Marshall is stronger and battles across the middle more and as much of a head case as he is, wallace wanting 17/year is just as crazy.
much like your argument that Marshall is older and worse than wallace and therefore wallace being worthy of at least 2 2nd rounds like marshall was. that trade happened 2 years ago when marshall was 26 (which wallace will be wednesday making them about 5 months apart in age at the time) and coming off 3 100/1000 sesasons in a row. wallace cant say that. its selective to take away his 3 most productive years when he actually had a top 10, maybe only top 15 qb vs a guys best two with a top 10 qb. thats your argument and its completely biased.
your argument that he only has those stats due to more targets making him a lesser talent is kind of bogus when you consider larry fitz himself had 1 less reception and 8 more targets than marshall while compiling a whopping 12/ypg more than marshall, which to me isnt all that much when you consider the difference in talent. actually almost all the top WRs typically have over 135 targets, because theyre good and their teams tend to try to get the ball in their hands a lot despite double teams which account for the lower catch rates. Wallace however, had 10 less than antonio brown on his own team. arguably making him their #2 option despite his production. Theres really not that many teams you can point 2 that have that scenario unless its more of a 1a 1b scenario. which considering how close they were statistically wallace and brown fall under. there certainly is not an ELITE WR that falls under that category, with hakeem nicks being the closest to it.
your set with your opinion and choosing to dismiss or see past any argument to the contrary, which is fine but dont claim its just people spouting off that he sucks and they dont like him when you just dont accept their form of argument. you consider debunking your facts as not supporting my argument, but imo, debunking those areas where you say he is better, is supporting my argument. despite that, to me any argument that has Fitz behind marshall and also behind wallace is a fallacy and why i dont put much stock into stats or this argument in particular. ability doesnt always match production because theres too many factors. like i said, its your prerogative, continue about it as you see fit.-JAB
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07-30-2012, 09:16 AM #67Veteran Poster
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
Does that number take into account Brown's new contract as well as all the restructuring of contracts they did to get under the cap this year? I am not even sure that the Pitt could clear enough to franchise him and trade him.
I doubt anyone would give them a first even if they could franchise him. His contract demands are not going to go down. Pitt and potential suitors had more leverage this year because he was a restricted free agent. Next year he would have to be franchised at what has to be more than 9m.
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
How can you measure this? You can't truly measure how bad a QB is. You're saying that even though his QB was worse, he should have been more productive, without a true measurement of just how bad the QB was, nor a measurement for the drastic difference in quality between his QB and Roethlisberger, because you can't measure that with stats alone.
You can't truly measure the quality of a performance against a fringe starter, compared to a performance against an All-Pro, or a performance against a defense in a more suitable system compared to a system that does not fit. When you realize this, you don't use an argument much different from those you are criticizing and JAB has already addressed this.Last edited by The Excellector; 07-30-2012 at 09:39 AM.
"Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore
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07-30-2012, 11:15 AM #69Regular 1st Stringer
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
Wallace will eventually sign his tender and play. He won't want to go into UFA next year after a full year off. He'd cost himself millions and he has to know that. The Steelers have all the leverage - they know it and Wallace knows it.
As for what happens long-term, who knows? A lot will likely depend on how the other Steelers receivers look this year. If Sanders steps up and makes it through injury-free, I think it significantly lowers the chances of Wallace returning. If Sanders doesn't step up though I could see the Steelers figuring out a way to sign Wallace long-term.
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
...............2012 2013
Ben R ......8.90 19.60
Harrison...9.03 10.69
Woodley...4.94 13.24
Ike Taylor.4.28 9.45
L Timmons.3.99 8.66
Polamalu...6.25 7.50
H Miller.....7.07 7.96
Colon........2.85 7.70
Keisel........4.50 4.50
R Clark......4.25 4.75
Pouncey.....2.99 3.30
A Brown.....2.75 6.20
...............61.79..103.54
This should illustrate what the Steelers had to do just to get under the cap this year, and how they just shoved all the money back. (2014 is similar as well). Look at the giant spikes in salary from the restructuring, twice for a lot of the guys at the top.
They will probably cut Harrison and Keisel, so they will be relieved of that salary, but the problem is Harrison restructured and the dead money hit will be huge. Keisel will be full savings, but that is only 4.5 million. They might net $8 million or so, but that is not much considering they are at $104 right now.
With a cap of $122 that leaves them in a pretty uhhh...bad spot to say the least.Last edited by TheJoeFlaccoShow; 07-30-2012 at 01:24 PM.
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Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
Sorry to burst your bubble, but 26 yr old 1200 yd receivers on the open market get paid. They are available....hardly ever.
And he won't be sitting out the whole year, he can't. He will play the last 6 games and playoffs and will have plenty of suitors in 2013, believe that.Follow me on Twitter! https://twitter.com/#!/thenflanalyst
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07-30-2012, 01:40 PM #72
Re: Steelers Ink Antonio Brown
Well then you'll need to consider Miami as part of that pass heavy offense as well as their pass:run ratio was over one, which still invalidates the point you were trying to make. If that's your definition, then literally every offense last year was a pass-heavy offense except for the Texans and the Broncos, as those were the only two that had designed runs more than designed passes.
So pretty much, regardless what your intention was of stating it, your point isn't valid. Yes, the Steelers did pass a higher percent of the time than the Dolphins did. But it wasn't by much. And it's not really accurate in any way to say that the Steelers are a pass-happy team, which you at the very least implied.
That's not an argument for WHY he's better. That's an argument THAT he's better. I don't care that you think he is better, I already know you do. Why is being bigger and stronger better than faster and more technically precise? Why is being a better red zone presence (which I can give you plenty of statistical indicators which shows that's actually not true, but realistically all you need to do is look at #TDs vs # passes thrown to each in the red zone to see how wildly inaccurate a statement that is) better than being excellent all over the field? Why do Marshall's characteristics allow him to add more to an offense than Wallace's? You haven't made an argument for why he's better.
First, I didn't say he should have been more productive. I simply argued he wouldn't have been as productive as Wallace if Wallace had the same QB.
Second, you certainly can measure it. You baseline all NFL players to come up with average performance at a position, then you measure the player's performance against that average, and come up with how well that player would have performed with better or worse. This is what DVOA does...read up on it if you want to know more about it, I'm not re-explaining it here...I already linked it for you.
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