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  1. #37

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State



    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    There's no question in my mind that if the NCAA can, within its rules, punish Penn State, they will. I really don't think that's an issue at all. It's just a matter of whether they can or not, without going so far outside of their own rules that it could be overturned in a lawsuit.
    I agree with that 100%.

    We need to remember there are limits to NCAA authority; that's all I was saying. This may be a university matter but not a NCAA matter.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  2. #38
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by esmd View Post
    I agree with Ravor. This is bigger than a football program. Every person at the school who had knowledge of the situation should be charged criminally to the fullest extent of the law. If Paterno were still alive, he would be included in this group. The school should have to pay restitution to the victims. Steep restitution. But to have the NCAA penalize the football team itself is below the scope of this disgusting case. The money the football program brings in can be diverted towards the restitution fund for the victims. Besides, the repurcussions of this will supercede any penalty the NCAA could impose. What high level recruit would want to go there anytime in the immediate future?
    Agree completely.


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  3. #39

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    Punish those who deserve it but don't make others pay for their sins, that's the tricky part
    You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    But when boys are told by a Penn State coach, Sandusky, that they need to give him sexual favors if they wish access to the team and it's facilities, certainly there is something in the NCAA's prevue that would justify a punishment on that level.
    I don't know that there are. A good example I heard the other day... The IRS cannot punish a murderer as long as the murderer has paid his taxes in a timely fashion. I don't think the NCAA has anything in their provisions that accounts for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    And there are STILL PSU supporters who are claiming that this thing is overblown and that it's the media's fault.
    As long as people don't paint all of us with that brush, I understand that. I spent a good bit of the day fighting with people who's claims are that Paterno can't be shown to be 100% without a doubt certainly involved in covering up the incident via actively convincing Curley/Schultz/Spanier that they should not go to the DPW in the matter.

    And while that's true to the letter of it, there are several problems in this argument...

    1) No, we can't be 100% certain. That said, it's extremely likely he helped convince Curley to change his mind on the matter, who in turn helped convince Schultz and Spanier.
    "Curley emails Schultz and Spanier and says he [Curley] has changed his mind about the plan "after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe [Paterno] yesterday." Curley now proposes to tell Sandusky "we feel there is a problem" and offer him "professional help." "If he is cooperative we would work with him to handle informing" the Second Mile; if Sandusky does not cooperate, "we don't have a choice and will inform DPW and the Second Mile." "Additionally, I will let him know that his guests are not permitted to use our facilities."
    People are arguing with me that this isn't dead-fast proof that he did it, because Freeh never got to interview Paterno and it's possible Curley's conversation with Paterno didn't involve Paterno trying to convince him not to report the matter. Okay, I get the whole "We'll never know with 100% certainty" argument. But that said, I think this fits the bill for "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is what you need in a court of law.

    2) Even if Paterno didn't try to convince Curley, he still stuck his head in the sand. Not good enough, Joe.

    3) He very clearly perjured himself when he told the grand jury that he had no knowledge of any incidents prior to the '01 shower incident, as it's very clear from this report that he knew about the '98 incident.

    The NCAA can hit the school with lack of institutional controls. And bullshit to the people that argue that this wasn't a football issue...one of the major reasons they hid it to try to avoid tarnishing the football program's reputation.

    That said, death penalty? Um, no. I make the odds on the school getting the death penalty to be less than 1%, probably by a lot. While it is somewhat a football issue, it is FAR more a school-wide issue. I think it's 50/50 whether the NCAA will have the stones to actually pull the trigger on any sanctions at all. There are far bigger school issues that need to be resolved here. The '98 incident was investigated by the police and reported properly. The '01 incident was a person not involved in the football program that was assaulting the boys. Had Paterno never been told about it, this wouldn't at all be a football issue. There's arguments that can be made on both sides of the coin, and while I think some punishment for the football program would be deserved, I think the death penalty is more laughable a penalty than no sanctions at all.

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  4. #40

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.



    I don't know that there are. A good example I heard the other day... The IRS cannot punish a murderer as long as the murderer has paid his taxes in a timely fashion. I don't think the NCAA has anything in their provisions that accounts for this.



    As long as people don't paint all of us with that brush, I understand that. I spent a good bit of the day fighting with people who's claims are that Paterno can't be shown to be 100% without a doubt certainly involved in covering up the incident via actively convincing Curley/Schultz/Spanier that they should not go to the DPW in the matter.

    And while that's true to the letter of it, there are several problems in this argument...

    1) No, we can't be 100% certain. That said, it's extremely likely he helped convince Curley to change his mind on the matter, who in turn helped convince Schultz and Spanier.

    People are arguing with me that this isn't dead-fast proof that he did it, because Freeh never got to interview Paterno and it's possible Curley's conversation with Paterno didn't involve Paterno trying to convince him not to report the matter. Okay, I get the whole "We'll never know with 100% certainty" argument. But that said, I think this fits the bill for "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is what you need in a court of law.

    2) Even if Paterno didn't try to convince Curley, he still stuck his head in the sand. Not good enough, Joe.

    3) He very clearly perjured himself when he told the grand jury that he had no knowledge of any incidents prior to the '01 shower incident, as it's very clear from this report that he knew about the '98 incident.

    The NCAA can hit the school with lack of institutional controls. And bullshit to the people that argue that this wasn't a football issue...one of the major reasons they hid it to try to avoid tarnishing the football program's reputation.

    That said, death penalty? Um, no. I make the odds on the school getting the death penalty to be less than 1%, probably by a lot. While it is somewhat a football issue, it is FAR more a school-wide issue. I think it's 50/50 whether the NCAA will have the stones to actually pull the trigger on any sanctions at all. There are far bigger school issues that need to be resolved here. The '98 incident was investigated by the police and reported properly. The '01 incident was a person not involved in the football program that was assaulting the boys. Had Paterno never been told about it, this wouldn't at all be a football issue. There's arguments that can be made on both sides of the coin, and while I think some punishment for the football program would be deserved, I think the death penalty is more laughable a penalty than no sanctions at all.

    - C -
    Agreed with this post. Death penalty does not make sense. I would have liked to have seen PSU self penalize the football program. Admitting that it got out of hand with the control put in the Joe's hands. Along with some type of penalty a set of rules and governance over football to ensure that there is never a repeat. As a penalty maybe a loss of some schollies and maybe donate post season funds from next two bowl games to a charity or something like that. I am guessing the school has some concern over conceding anything with the future litigation from the victims.




  5. #41

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I can't say if I support the death penalty for PSU or not. On the one hand I think that school should have the hammer dropped because it was an institution wide situation. Even after Sandusky was removed from the football team, he had an office in the athletics building.

    On the other, there weren't any NCAA infractions that were broken. No money given to players or their families, no steroids being abused, etc...

    The only reason I'm posting is to say that the NCAA can and will over reach their bounds on occasion. If they wanted, they have the authority to nail PSU to the proverbial wall simply because the AD at the time knew about the situation and did nothing to stop it. Athletic director being involved gives the NCAA all the reason they need.

    Will they? Probably not. I generally tend to agree with PSUasskicker (might have to change your name cause I'm not calling you PSU anymore and PSUasskicker is to long to type out all the time).
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  6. #42
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I don't know if they should suspend the football program or not, but what I do know is that they're going to have a REALLY difficult time recruiting for quite some time.

    Bill O'Brien is going to have to work some real magic.
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  7. #43
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.


    - C -
    The president is still there, the board is still there. Not sure what you mean
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  8. #44

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I don't know how the football program can be separated from possible penalties from the NCAA. Sandusky used the football program as a reward system for the victims. Part of the reason some of them didn't want to come forward was they were afraid of losing access to football games. Some even traveled with the team and stayed in hotels with the team on the road. A sexual assault took place in the locker room of the football team that two football coaches knew about. The head coach admits he could have done more when Sandusky was still bringing kids around the football facilities right up until his arrest. A decades worth of attacks could have been prevented if the head coach and those in the administration took proper action, instead of being more concerned with the image of the university.




  9. #45
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtlesNBirds View Post
    I don't know how the football program can be separated from possible penalties from the NCAA. Sandusky used the football program as a reward system for the victims. Part of the reason some of them didn't want to come forward was they were afraid of losing access to football games. Some even traveled with the team and stayed in hotels with the team on the road. A sexual assault took place in the locker room of the football team that two football coaches knew about. The head coach admits he could have done more when Sandusky was still bringing kids around the football facilities right up until his arrest. A decades worth of attacks could have been prevented if the head coach and those in the administration took proper action, instead of being more concerned with the image of the university.

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  10. #46

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    PSU, I was wondering when you would chime in. Your post is very reasonable and well thought out and it must be painful to be fighting with people on PSU boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.
    That's not how the NCAA works, nor should it. If you can make NCAA problems go away by firing people, there suddenly becomes a market for people whose sole job it is to cheat until the program gets caught, collect their severance package and move on to the next town, where they can be the professional fall guy again.

    The NCAA can and should punish programs as a deterrent, and that means punishing even if the principal ne'erdowells have moved on.

    There are two questions, both of which you touch on:

    1. Does the NCAA have any authority here, or, in other words, was this sufficiently connected to the athletics program at PSU?

    2. If so, what's the appropriate penalty?

    Like Ravor, I'm 100% certain that if the answer to question 1 is "yes," there will be a penalty, PSU. But, like yourself, I do not think there would be a "death penalty." If there is any discipline, I expect it would be the loss of a year, which would be a tremendous financial and programming loss for the university.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  11. #47
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I think you guys advocating the so called "death penalty" are missing the point. What went on here wasn't to benefit the on the field performance of the football team. This is about criminal behavior by people who happened to be involved with the football program and university. NCAA sanctions are given because of improper actions by and for the actual players. This goes way beyond that. The University itself and the principles involved need to held accountable, but O'Brien and a bunch of kids who had nothing to do with and no knowledge of the criminal behavior and coverup that took place. The proper way to handle this is jail time for the people involved in the acts and coverup, and reparations to the victims by PSU and perhaps even the Commonwealth of PA.
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  12. #48

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I agree with the previous post about this being more of a criminal matter than a NCAA matter. All those who were complicit need to be dealt with through the legal system.

    Whoever is responsible for handling PR for the Paterno family should resign immediately. Allowing them to comment on this fiasco is tragically stupid. They need to take the settlement money and move as far away from Happy Valley as possible. And then they should never make any comments again.




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