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  1. #31
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State



    If they don't self impose penalties the NCAA will have to step in but so far they have shown the 'head in sand' approach.

    The President Graham Spanier is still a faculty member and the boardof trustees is still intact.

    One thing I think this report will bring is a LOT of civil suits costing them dearly
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  2. #32

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by festivus View Post
    2. Assuming for a moment that the NCAA *can* take action here, Penn State can be done with football for a couple years.

    Sure, the criminal justice system can (and did) reach the most culpable parties, and punishing these pieces of shit does not undo the harm they did, but... Officials at Ohio State and Miami and Oregon and USC and all the other programs should know that the *program* will suffer when you cross some lines. If the NCAA can discipline Penn State and chooses not to because the wrongdoers are being punished, it is condoning the practice of lax oversight and willful ignorance and institutional obedience to the coach that made this tragedy possible.
    There's no question in my mind that if the NCAA can, within its rules, punish Penn State, they will. I really don't think that's an issue at all. It's just a matter of whether they can or not, without going so far outside of their own rules that it could be overturned in a lawsuit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    When the NCAA comes knocking at your door there are two iconic phrases that cause everyone -- mob-joiners or otherwise -- to sit up and take notice. And those are "death penalty" and "lack of institutional control." The go together, the latter leading to the former.
    For what I've read - and assuming it's accurate - the NCAA guidelines only allow the death penalty for repeat offenders - ie those schools that have been found in violation previously. While this current situation has certainly been revealed to be a long-standing pattern of repeated misconduct, I'm not sure that it sufficiently fits into the rule related to the death penalty or could be successfully argued that it fits within the meaning of those rules.
    Last edited by B-more Ravor; 07-12-2012 at 02:57 PM.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  3. #33

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    If they don't self impose penalties the NCAA will have to step in but so far they have shown the 'head in sand' approach.
    Personally, I think the University should self-impose a 4- or 5-year hiatus for the football progam and release all of the present players from their scholarship.

    Unfortunately, that would be very bad timing for those guys to find new schools at this point of the year.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  4. #34

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by edtude View Post
    Fine let's not kill the football program. Let them continue to play and compete. Let's take all revenues for the next 10 years generated by the football program and donate them to the appropriate charity. Penn State benefitted financially from criminal acts and this is the only way to ensure that real change will be made on that campus.
    I understand what you are saying, but you've also got to remember that many, many students and employees of the University - who had nothing to do with football, who could care less about football - also benefited from the money created by the football program.

    But, the reality now is, IMO, that the football program - if it continues - will be nowhere near the revenue generator that it has been over the last several decades. PSU is going to get far less quality recruits and the school, in general, is going to get far less applicants and donations. Football or not, the University, as an entity, is going to suffer greatly for this, there's no question about that.

    And, that doesn't even take into account what the Dept of Ed may do.
    Last edited by B-more Ravor; 07-12-2012 at 02:59 PM.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  5. #35

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    The legal system needs to take harsh measures against those in the know.

    The NCAA needs to send an extremely strong message to PSU and the other universities as whole that illegal activity is not acceptable activity.

    Finally, PSU should garner no monetary gain for their football program that they tried to protect. If they are not suspended, then they should not be able to receive income for the program for a given period of time. All profits for the football team should be channeled to the victims, victims rights groups, etc...
    Everybody's talkin' at me; I don't hear a word they're saying; Only the echoes of my mind

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  6. #36
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I agree with Ravor. This is bigger than a football program. Every person at the school who had knowledge of the situation should be charged criminally to the fullest extent of the law. If Paterno were still alive, he would be included in this group. The school should have to pay restitution to the victims. Steep restitution. But to have the NCAA penalize the football team itself is below the scope of this disgusting case. The money the football program brings in can be diverted towards the restitution fund for the victims. Besides, the repurcussions of this will supercede any penalty the NCAA could impose. What high level recruit would want to go there anytime in the immediate future?
    Never get in a fight with a pig; you both get muddy, and the pig likes it...





  7. #37

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    There's no question in my mind that if the NCAA can, within its rules, punish Penn State, they will. I really don't think that's an issue at all. It's just a matter of whether they can or not, without going so far outside of their own rules that it could be overturned in a lawsuit.
    I agree with that 100%.

    We need to remember there are limits to NCAA authority; that's all I was saying. This may be a university matter but not a NCAA matter.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  8. #38
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by esmd View Post
    I agree with Ravor. This is bigger than a football program. Every person at the school who had knowledge of the situation should be charged criminally to the fullest extent of the law. If Paterno were still alive, he would be included in this group. The school should have to pay restitution to the victims. Steep restitution. But to have the NCAA penalize the football team itself is below the scope of this disgusting case. The money the football program brings in can be diverted towards the restitution fund for the victims. Besides, the repurcussions of this will supercede any penalty the NCAA could impose. What high level recruit would want to go there anytime in the immediate future?
    Agree completely.


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  9. #39

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    Punish those who deserve it but don't make others pay for their sins, that's the tricky part
    You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    But when boys are told by a Penn State coach, Sandusky, that they need to give him sexual favors if they wish access to the team and it's facilities, certainly there is something in the NCAA's prevue that would justify a punishment on that level.
    I don't know that there are. A good example I heard the other day... The IRS cannot punish a murderer as long as the murderer has paid his taxes in a timely fashion. I don't think the NCAA has anything in their provisions that accounts for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    And there are STILL PSU supporters who are claiming that this thing is overblown and that it's the media's fault.
    As long as people don't paint all of us with that brush, I understand that. I spent a good bit of the day fighting with people who's claims are that Paterno can't be shown to be 100% without a doubt certainly involved in covering up the incident via actively convincing Curley/Schultz/Spanier that they should not go to the DPW in the matter.

    And while that's true to the letter of it, there are several problems in this argument...

    1) No, we can't be 100% certain. That said, it's extremely likely he helped convince Curley to change his mind on the matter, who in turn helped convince Schultz and Spanier.
    "Curley emails Schultz and Spanier and says he [Curley] has changed his mind about the plan "after giving it more thought and talking it over with Joe [Paterno] yesterday." Curley now proposes to tell Sandusky "we feel there is a problem" and offer him "professional help." "If he is cooperative we would work with him to handle informing" the Second Mile; if Sandusky does not cooperate, "we don't have a choice and will inform DPW and the Second Mile." "Additionally, I will let him know that his guests are not permitted to use our facilities."
    People are arguing with me that this isn't dead-fast proof that he did it, because Freeh never got to interview Paterno and it's possible Curley's conversation with Paterno didn't involve Paterno trying to convince him not to report the matter. Okay, I get the whole "We'll never know with 100% certainty" argument. But that said, I think this fits the bill for "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is what you need in a court of law.

    2) Even if Paterno didn't try to convince Curley, he still stuck his head in the sand. Not good enough, Joe.

    3) He very clearly perjured himself when he told the grand jury that he had no knowledge of any incidents prior to the '01 shower incident, as it's very clear from this report that he knew about the '98 incident.

    The NCAA can hit the school with lack of institutional controls. And bullshit to the people that argue that this wasn't a football issue...one of the major reasons they hid it to try to avoid tarnishing the football program's reputation.

    That said, death penalty? Um, no. I make the odds on the school getting the death penalty to be less than 1%, probably by a lot. While it is somewhat a football issue, it is FAR more a school-wide issue. I think it's 50/50 whether the NCAA will have the stones to actually pull the trigger on any sanctions at all. There are far bigger school issues that need to be resolved here. The '98 incident was investigated by the police and reported properly. The '01 incident was a person not involved in the football program that was assaulting the boys. Had Paterno never been told about it, this wouldn't at all be a football issue. There's arguments that can be made on both sides of the coin, and while I think some punishment for the football program would be deserved, I think the death penalty is more laughable a penalty than no sanctions at all.

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  10. #40

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.



    I don't know that there are. A good example I heard the other day... The IRS cannot punish a murderer as long as the murderer has paid his taxes in a timely fashion. I don't think the NCAA has anything in their provisions that accounts for this.



    As long as people don't paint all of us with that brush, I understand that. I spent a good bit of the day fighting with people who's claims are that Paterno can't be shown to be 100% without a doubt certainly involved in covering up the incident via actively convincing Curley/Schultz/Spanier that they should not go to the DPW in the matter.

    And while that's true to the letter of it, there are several problems in this argument...

    1) No, we can't be 100% certain. That said, it's extremely likely he helped convince Curley to change his mind on the matter, who in turn helped convince Schultz and Spanier.

    People are arguing with me that this isn't dead-fast proof that he did it, because Freeh never got to interview Paterno and it's possible Curley's conversation with Paterno didn't involve Paterno trying to convince him not to report the matter. Okay, I get the whole "We'll never know with 100% certainty" argument. But that said, I think this fits the bill for "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is what you need in a court of law.

    2) Even if Paterno didn't try to convince Curley, he still stuck his head in the sand. Not good enough, Joe.

    3) He very clearly perjured himself when he told the grand jury that he had no knowledge of any incidents prior to the '01 shower incident, as it's very clear from this report that he knew about the '98 incident.

    The NCAA can hit the school with lack of institutional controls. And bullshit to the people that argue that this wasn't a football issue...one of the major reasons they hid it to try to avoid tarnishing the football program's reputation.

    That said, death penalty? Um, no. I make the odds on the school getting the death penalty to be less than 1%, probably by a lot. While it is somewhat a football issue, it is FAR more a school-wide issue. I think it's 50/50 whether the NCAA will have the stones to actually pull the trigger on any sanctions at all. There are far bigger school issues that need to be resolved here. The '98 incident was investigated by the police and reported properly. The '01 incident was a person not involved in the football program that was assaulting the boys. Had Paterno never been told about it, this wouldn't at all be a football issue. There's arguments that can be made on both sides of the coin, and while I think some punishment for the football program would be deserved, I think the death penalty is more laughable a penalty than no sanctions at all.

    - C -
    Agreed with this post. Death penalty does not make sense. I would have liked to have seen PSU self penalize the football program. Admitting that it got out of hand with the control put in the Joe's hands. Along with some type of penalty a set of rules and governance over football to ensure that there is never a repeat. As a penalty maybe a loss of some schollies and maybe donate post season funds from next two bowl games to a charity or something like that. I am guessing the school has some concern over conceding anything with the future litigation from the victims.




  11. #41

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I can't say if I support the death penalty for PSU or not. On the one hand I think that school should have the hammer dropped because it was an institution wide situation. Even after Sandusky was removed from the football team, he had an office in the athletics building.

    On the other, there weren't any NCAA infractions that were broken. No money given to players or their families, no steroids being abused, etc...

    The only reason I'm posting is to say that the NCAA can and will over reach their bounds on occasion. If they wanted, they have the authority to nail PSU to the proverbial wall simply because the AD at the time knew about the situation and did nothing to stop it. Athletic director being involved gives the NCAA all the reason they need.

    Will they? Probably not. I generally tend to agree with PSUasskicker (might have to change your name cause I'm not calling you PSU anymore and PSUasskicker is to long to type out all the time).
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, “Hi I’m Ben may I have a drink please?”
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  12. #42
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I don't know if they should suspend the football program or not, but what I do know is that they're going to have a REALLY difficult time recruiting for quite some time.

    Bill O'Brien is going to have to work some real magic.
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  13. #43
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    You can't, if you're the NCAA. All the people who were involved are no longer with the program.


    - C -
    The president is still there, the board is still there. Not sure what you mean
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  14. #44

    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    I don't know how the football program can be separated from possible penalties from the NCAA. Sandusky used the football program as a reward system for the victims. Part of the reason some of them didn't want to come forward was they were afraid of losing access to football games. Some even traveled with the team and stayed in hotels with the team on the road. A sexual assault took place in the locker room of the football team that two football coaches knew about. The head coach admits he could have done more when Sandusky was still bringing kids around the football facilities right up until his arrest. A decades worth of attacks could have been prevented if the head coach and those in the administration took proper action, instead of being more concerned with the image of the university.




  15. #45
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    Re: The Freeh Report and the Future of Penn State

    Quote Originally Posted by TurtlesNBirds View Post
    I don't know how the football program can be separated from possible penalties from the NCAA. Sandusky used the football program as a reward system for the victims. Part of the reason some of them didn't want to come forward was they were afraid of losing access to football games. Some even traveled with the team and stayed in hotels with the team on the road. A sexual assault took place in the locker room of the football team that two football coaches knew about. The head coach admits he could have done more when Sandusky was still bringing kids around the football facilities right up until his arrest. A decades worth of attacks could have been prevented if the head coach and those in the administration took proper action, instead of being more concerned with the image of the university.

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