Doss Fully Recovered and 10 pounds heavier

[NCRAVEN]

But that's almost like saying busts don't exist. For every NFL prospect that doesn't make it you could probably come up with a non-talent related reason that isn't entirely their own fault for why they failed.

It's not saying bust don't exist, it's saying some first rounders may not be bust taking into account certain things, like they got hyped by playing at a small school with an easy schedule and a team reached by a roud or two... it's happened.

I think the problem here is that bust is just to broad of a term. There are different degrees of being a bust. Guys like Jamarcus Russell and Ryan Leaf are colossal busts. Then you have guys like Reggie Bush, who has had a productive career but compared to the expectations that was placed on him when he was drafted he's been a disappointment. And then there are those guys who just didn't even come close to panning out, like say Yamon Figurs. That's where Doss would fall if he was cut this offseason, which he will not be. The Ravens would find some way to stick him on IR if he was beat out by that many guys.

Exactly.

[JAB1985]

While I may agree that Doss probably won't be cut, how do you know he isn't better than Deonte, Streeter, or Jones? This is your (a fan's assessment), but may not be Harb's (the coaching staff's) estimate. So far IMO he hasn't shown he belongs on the 53 man roster... only that the Ravens don't want to be embarrassed that they cut a 4th round draft choice so early in his career... Bc

hes shown he doesnt belong based off what? Your fans opinion? He showed more than torrey last season, while still recovering from surgery. Being healthy and given the same playing time theres no question, imo, thatd hed be further along than torrey. Hes not as fast as torrey but when healthy hes not as slow as people think either. As a Wr He started out further along and hes not a bad KR when healthy either. Nothing ive seen says he doesnt belong, certainly over a bunch of rookies, which i have hogh hopes for as well. Jones has only proven not capable of being consistent opposite the best WR in football on a pass happy team. Hes beneath doss imo if only because hes still learning the offense.

[JimZipCode]

Tony did a nice interview two years ago with DeCosta and it got pretty specific.

Thanks for linking that. I hadn't seen it before. Extremely interesting.

[JimZipCode]

Seems to me we have more talent at WR on this squad than the Ravens have ever had before.

Makes it seem like the acquisition of Jacoby Jones was a waste. All it does is clog up the pipeline, taking crucial snaps away from younger players with upside like Doss, David Reed, LaQuan Williams, Deonte Thompson et al.

[goodandfast]

Seems to me we have more talent at WR on this squad than the Ravens have ever had before.

Makes it seem like the acquisition of Jacoby Jones was a waste. All it does is clog up the pipeline, taking crucial snaps away from younger players with upside like Doss, David Reed, LaQuan Williams, Deonte Thompson et al.

Alternatively, it makes the hungriest of those young guys work that much harder to be the number 3. Competition is a good thing.


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[Corey]

Alternatively, it makes the hungriest of those young guys work that much harder to be the number 3. Competition is a good thing.


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Not if it isn't a real competition. Jones ability as a special teamer gives him a leg up. I don't know how may receivers the Ravens keep active last year I think it was 4 most of the time. If Tandon Doss's only purpose is a the 3rd wr, when Williams and Jones can also be receiver #3 and play special teams Doss will be left out of that numbers game. Not mention the Ravens didn't sign him to a 7 million dollar contract to sit.

[BigPlayReceiver]

Lots of details and passion for a pretty shaky hypothetical :)

[Ravens44]

Not if it isn't a real competition. Jones ability as a special teamer gives him a leg up. I don't know how may receivers the Ravens keep active last year I think it was 4 most of the time. If Tandon Doss's only purpose is a the 3rd wr, when Williams and Jones can also be receiver #3 and play special teams Doss will be left out of that numbers game. Not mention the Ravens didn't sign him to a 7 million dollar contract to sit.

That is the issue.
And what makes me believe that even more, is the Ravens drafting what they thought was their future franchise LT in Oher and continuing to try to force him over there when it was clear to everyone else, he is not the answer at LT.

I can envision Jones as the number 3 even after he drops a number of passes due to his paycheck.
Even after the fans screaming and hollering for Doss or someone else.
I am just hoping that Jones AND Doss gets their chances to succeed but I will not be holding my breath.
Being able to assess the situation and adapt on offense during a game or the season for that matter, is not a strong point for the Ravens the last 4 years.

[BcRaven]

hes shown he doesnt belong based off what? Your fans opinion? He showed more than torrey last season, while still recovering from surgery. Being healthy and given the same playing time theres no question, imo, thatd hed be further along than torrey. Hes not as fast as torrey but when healthy hes not as slow as people think either. As a Wr He started out further along and hes not a bad KR when healthy either. Nothing ive seen says he doesnt belong, certainly over a bunch of rookies, which i have hogh hopes for as well. Jones has only proven not capable of being consistent opposite the best WR in football on a pass happy team. Hes beneath doss imo if only because hes still learning the offense.

(a) Yes, in my (fan's) opinion because that's what we all do.
(b) If you think that he would have been more productive than Torrey Smith then I cannot come up with a reply because he would have been a pro bowl type player.
(c) Of course he (Doss) belongs over a bunch of rookies, but part of it is that most teams won't release high/middle draft choices early in their careers.
(d) I am not for letting him go, but for using the best receivers the Ravens have. Remember that LaQuan Williams was an UDFA in 2011, and still was on the field more than Doss... Bc

[LukeDaniel]

For example, Jason Pierre-Paul was an significantly athletic defensive end, best suited for the DE spot in a 4-3, but was considered a very raw talent who would take years to develop. He was not a very 'Pro-ready' prospect. Should we have labeled him a bust anyway, if he hadn't developed, because he was drafted in the first round?

IMO, yes he would have been a bust. In my humble opinion, you and a few others here, are taking too touchy feely of a stance on this whole thing by trying to justify why players become bust. In the end, the why is irrelevent.

If a player is drafted in the first round and doesn't turn into a starter, then he is a bust. I don't think his background matters. When a team selects you in the first round, the expectation is that you will be a contributor, and if you're not, you're a bust.

There is nothing wrong with being a bust. It happens to players for a variety of reasons, some of which are no fault of the player.

In some cases, like with the aforementioned Leaf and Jamarcus, the "bust" label was totally deserved and probably not stinging enough of a label to reflect their deficiencies as players and as people. Russell was lazy. Leaf was amazingly immature. Another Russell (Darrell) was both lazy and immature as well.

Some players don't materialize due to an inability to keep their nose clean. Troy Williamson falls into that category. So does Darrell Russell. Jamarcus Russell had his off-the-field issues too. There are tons of other names here as well. That guy Demetrius Underwood couldn't stay out of the mental institutions long enough to ever see a football field. I'm sure that's just one of a couple of names that fit that description.

For players like the above, a "bust" is probably too generous of a label. These people embodied the negative side of drafting a player in the first round.

However, for every Leaf or Russell or Williamson, there is someone like a Boller or a Dan Cody.

Boller was a huge flop as a NFL starter. However, from everything I've heard and read, that was not due to a lack of effort. It was not due to a lack of work ethic. It was not due to a lack of readiness from a maturity standpoint. Boller, as frustrating as he was on the field, did everything the right way off the field. He worked hard. He kept his nose clean. He handled an intense level of scrutiny and criticism with class and professionalism. Boller's lack of success on the football field was due to one thing---he just wasn't/isn't that good of a QB. The Ravens misevaluated him in that area. The fact that he is still in the NFL 8-9 years after being drafted, while guys like Leaf and Russell were out of football after four years, indicates that Boller at least acquitted himself well enough to earn a role as a backup even after it became obvious he wasn't talented enough to be a starter. Russell and Leaf were so deficient as humans that no team could even stand to offer them an opportunity as a backup.

Cody played in one NFL game if memory serves me correctly. Like Boller, he did all the right things, and effort or behavior was never an effort. He just couldn't stay healthy.


Russell and Leaf took a different route to "bustdom" than Boller or Cody, but at the end of the day, they were still all busts. Being a bust is nothing more than a reflection of the players lack of production in comparison with the expectations placed on someone drafted in their position. It's not an insult. If Jason Pierre-Paul had looked lost from day one as a Giant, he would have been a bust just the same as the other four examples mentioned above.

[bmorecareful]

Seems to me we have more talent at WR on this squad than the Ravens have ever had before.

Makes it seem like the acquisition of Jacoby Jones was a waste. All it does is clog up the pipeline, taking crucial snaps away from younger players with upside like Doss, David Reed, LaQuan Williams, Deonte Thompson et al.

I agree. The Ravens FO has been consistently excellent for years at drafting and signing quality players--"right player, right price." But the Jones contract seemed like one of those rare mistakes even before we knew the exact contract terms, simply because Jones is a known quantity--and not of very high quality. He's going to block young, hungry talent from getting a chance to develop and contribute.

With the terms of his contract now being known, to me, Jones is a waste of a 1.6m cap hit in 2012. He'll return kicks and punts at a level probably not greatly higher than guys we already had, and he will not contribute as a #3 WR to any significant degree. Again, the Ravens FO doesn't make a lot of mistakes but this is one of them.

[JAB1985]

(a) Yes, in my (fan's) opinion because that's what we all do.
(b) If you think that he would have been more productive than Torrey Smith then I cannot come up with a reply because he would have been a pro bowl type player.
(c) Of course he (Doss) belongs over a bunch of rookies, but part of it is that most teams won't release high/middle draft choices early in their careers.
(d) I am not for letting him go, but for using the best receivers the Ravens have. Remember that LaQuan Williams was an UDFA in 2011, and still was on the field more than Doss... Bc

but what has he shown that makes you think hes not worthy of making the team? Im just curious about that part in particular because outside of practice he hasnt really had many opportunities and preseason he really did well, arguably better than Torrey. For clarification I didnt say, out produce torrey, i said further along as a WR. Torreys speed in this system is certainly an asset, but Doss can and should be a productive underneath WR and more complete, simply because hes a better route runner and hands catcher. Thompson, Streeter and Williams havent really shown anything but inconsistency, and even last year where Williams played and doss didnt, it had more to do with STs than being a better WR and only having 45 play on sunday. Technically if you look at the teams depth chart, Doss was higher, but Williams got the nod for ST.

I think many read into Laquan playing more than Doss way too much. I understand the thought that he played and the other guy didnt so the first thought would be "hes better", but thats not necessarily the case. Which guys suit up comes down to strategy as much as overall value on game day. On a team that plays very little 3 WR sets the 4th or 5th Wr has very little value to the game plan. Guys on ST are always a little more valuable than depth players that dont. Kind of like Kruger, thought of as a bust because he didnt play ST and rarely suited up, now when he sees the field we realize he was a good player. Doss could be a very similar career trajectory. a year or two of very little PT and then all of a sudden when a vet leaves we have a player that appears to have come out of nowhere to fill in. If anything the fact that they kept a player that didnt play ST and didnt have much value on game day would suggest they do still think highly of him. I think all along the plan for Doss was to replace Boldin next year, but that doesnt mean he wont get significant PT this year either.