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Thread: Jacoby Jones

  1. #16
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    Re: Jacoby Jones



    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Who where you guys expecting us to get? We couldn't even afford a guy like Laurent Robinson, at least we got someone who can return kicks and punts pretty well. At the end of the day, the best man will win the #3 WR position, and will likely not have to do much more than rack up anywhere between 200-400 yards, which I think Jacoby can do. At the same time LaQuan Williams and Tandon Doss can beat out Jacoby for that position, but they have to back it up through out the pre season, and need to bring the A game in the pre season games too. Ultimately our tight ends are going to be the guys who need to step it up as they are playing a very important role in our offense, and of course Boldin and Smith will have high expectations to do well this year.

    T Smith (Good for, 800-1000 yards)
    Boldin (Good for, 700-900 yards)
    Ray Rice (Good for, 500-700 yards)
    Pitta (Good for, 400-600 yards)
    Dickson (Good for, 400-600 yards)

    These are the guys that will get most of the catches in this offense. Anything our #3 guy can do is just a bonus IMO. Even our fullback had more catches than our #3 guy last year. I think we will see more work from our #3 guy this year, I expect around 200-400 yards from him (whoever it is). So Flacco is likely to pass for around 3800 yards in 2012.
    That's not really the point though. Considering the issues the entire receiving unit had last year with the dropsies you would think that they would like to be leaning more towards guys with consistent hands.

    I like the size/speed combo that Jones has. I like that he's got experience as a return specialist.

    What I don't like is that he's never really been a good receiver to begin with and he's potentially taking snaps/opportunities away from Doss and/or LaQuan who could end up being really good players.

    LaQuan has experience as a kick returner. So does Torrey. Both have experience as punt returners. They drafted Asa Jackson who was a very productive punt and kick returner in college and they brought in Deonte Thompson and Bobby Rainey who are experience kick and punt returners from college. Young? Absolutely. However, that's what the pre-season is for. The Steelers weren't sure what they had in Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders until they put them out there and not they're two of the better young all-around receivers in the league.
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  2. #17

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    I still hope that someone beats Jones out the the #3 spot. Let him stick to being the return guy.
    No one needs to. This team has plenty of one-back two TE sets with Dickson and Pitta split wide to be just fine. Our #3 receiver only needs to see the field on 5% - 10% of the plays, if even that.

    Jacoby is a nice addition. But anyone that expects most of his impact to be on offense isn't being realistic. If it is, either he's failing massively as a return-man, or he's surprising significantly as a receiver. The first isn't particularly likely. If it's the second, we should be pretty thrilled.

    I think he finishes the year with 250 receiving yards and 2 TDs receiving. That'd be a pretty solid year as a #3 WR for us.

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  3. #18

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    The Steelers weren't sure what they had in Antonio Brown and Emmanuel Sanders until they put them out there and not they're two of the better young all-around receivers in the league.
    People keep saying that...I'd bet that they actually showed in practice that they could play.

    I highly doubt our WR's are showing they are ready in practice and the team instead decides to sign somebody for a lot of money. Doss likely didn't have the system down. Laquan had 4 catches and had numerous drops. David Reed has been here for 2 years and has not managed a single reception.

    It's just baffling to me that people freak out about not having proven or high draft picks at virtually every other position on this squad, but when it comes to WR, it's "we never just throw them out there". Really though, I think we've found why we haven't just thrown out our draft picks there because they don't get picked up by another squad and are quickly out of the league.




  4. #19
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    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    People keep saying that...I'd bet that they actually showed in practice that they could play.

    I highly doubt our WR's are showing they are ready in practice and the team instead decides to sign somebody for a lot of money. Doss likely didn't have the system down. Laquan had 4 catches and had numerous drops. David Reed has been here for 2 years and has not managed a single reception.

    It's just baffling to me that people freak out about not having proven or high draft picks at virtually every other position on this squad, but when it comes to WR, it's "we never just throw them out there". Really though, I think we've found why we haven't just thrown out our draft picks there because they don't get picked up by another squad and are quickly out of the league.
    Well, for starters, you can be an ace in practice against your own team, but against other teams during game situations is a completely different story with completely different variables.

    Demetrius Williams and Mark Clayton were amazing during practice and during the games they were pretty lackluster.

    Secondly, there has always been an inherent drop off in the development of receivers on this team. For whatever reason the receivers that the Ravens draft rarely pan out. I know that almost every team has an extremely high fail rate when it comes to receivers in the draft, but I'd wager that the Ravens over the last decade probably take the cake when it comes to drafting and developing starting caliber receivers. I mean, in 10+ years Torrey Smith seems to be the only legitimate receiver that the Ravens have drafted who could actually pan out and be a 1000+ yard receiver.

    The point is if they can't keep putting band aids on the receiver position and calling it good. Every year that they bring in some vet receiver that some other team(s) didn't or don't want to take snaps from the young guys is a year that their development gets stunted. Now, this is certainly only my opinion, but it would seem to me that you don't really know what you have in a player until they play during real games. I'm not saying Tandon Doss or LaQuan Williams should be starters or even that they've earned it, so to speak, but what I am saying is that they should be doing a better job of getting them into the mix throughout the season and then at least there is legitimate film on them against an unfamiliar opponent to gauge whether or not there is anything there worth developing.
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  5. #20

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Demetrius Williams and Mark Clayton were amazing during practice and during the games they were pretty lackluster.
    I'm gonna ask you to go ahead and prove that. Don't say "Well, the media said [this and that]," either, because
    1) the media doesn't have the full access to practice and what happens in all them and team meetings and
    2) if the media members were able to properly judge how well players in practice would translate to game-day performance, they wouldn't be media members, they'd be NFL coaches.

    I don't understand why it is that people just think that there are all these hidden gems. Is it possible? Yes. But realistically, if Doss (or DWill, or David Reed, or Justin Harper, or whoever) really were good enough to make an impact on the field, chances are pretty good he'd actually already be doing that. If a guy doesn't make it into the game, it's either cause we're so deep at the position that they can't unseat a dearth of hugely productive veterans, or cause the coaches don't see him in practice doing what he needs to do to be able to make an impact in the game.

    I'm pretty sure we aren't that deep at the position, so.......

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  6. #21

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    houston made jones expendable when they drafted keysahwn martin out of michigan state in the 4th round. martin is just a flat out playmaker as a specil teams and #3 receiver.

    the personell people in houston must know what they are doing. they have a ton of young talent. the only question mark about the texans is schaub. he makes some stupid decision.




  7. #22

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    The point about practice is that you have to produce to get a shot at the field.

    Brown and Sanders produced in practice...so they then got a shot on the field. They showed they could do it.

    If anything, bringing up Williams and Clayton goes to show that even if you can cut it in practice, it doesn't show you can cut it in games. If you have guys that can't even reach that level in practice, why would anybody think that they are going to suddenly break out against the Jets or Steelers?

    If you CAN'T produce in practice, there is an extremely high probability that you can't produce when the lights come on.

    As for their drafting lack of success at WR...I agree. And that is EXACTLY why I'm not saying to just throw them out there. In almost every line of work, you have to show that you are ready for the real deal. Maybe instead of just saying we should throw guys out there, the problem is that we just aren't drafting guys that are any good. Sorry, there is no way in hell I'm relying on Laquan Williams or David Reed to become Antonio Brown and Emmanual Sanders...and hope and pray that all they need is to play...our drafting history is even worse than our Vet signing history so the odds are that the vet we bring in will produce more than the draft pick. I'll give Doss somewhat of a pass...I think he struggled with learning since we didn't have an offseason and he's really raw. Reed? I've practially given up hope that he will be a legit NFL WR. Williams? He has a spot in this league, but it isn't as a 3rd WR on a good passing team.




  8. #23

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    I'm gonna ask you to go ahead and prove that. Don't say "Well, the media said [this and that]," either, because
    1) the media doesn't have the full access to practice and what happens in all them and team meetings and
    2) if the media members were able to properly judge how well players in practice would translate to game-day performance, they wouldn't be media members, they'd be NFL coaches.

    I don't understand why it is that people just think that there are all these hidden gems. Is it possible? Yes. But realistically, if Doss (or DWill, or David Reed, or Justin Harper, or whoever) really were good enough to make an impact on the field, chances are pretty good he'd actually already be doing that. If a guy doesn't make it into the game, it's either cause we're so deep at the position that they can't unseat a dearth of hugely productive veterans, or cause the coaches don't see him in practice doing what he needs to do to be able to make an impact in the game.

    I'm pretty sure we aren't that deep at the position, so.......

    - C -
    Yup.

    This thinking that the WR's don't have to prove themselves at all makes zero sense.




  9. #24
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    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    Yup.

    This thinking that the WR's don't have to prove themselves at all makes zero sense.
    I think you'd be hard pressed to find any fan on this board who would claim that the young receivers DONT have to prove themselves before taking the field. What myself and a lot of other folks don't get is that we draft these young receivers and then they NEVER see the field. Ever. There is no way they are that bad in practice, otherwise they'd be cut and wouldn't make it out of pre-season.

    My comment on the Steelers with Brown and Sanders was that they were given an opportunity to come in and play a handful of snaps during real game situations and they proved that they could hack it. The Ravens don't even get their young guys out there to show whether or not they can or can't hack it. How would we or anyone know (including the coaching staff) if David Reed could have played well during game situations? They haven't used him at all with the exception of a snap or two. Granted, he's kind of a bad example because of his injury history, but this has been an on-going problem with Harbaugh. He really refuses to play young guys unless he has no other choice. Steve Bisciotti even eluded to that. The only reason Torrey got significant playing time was because Lee Evans was hurt for 75% of the season. If Lee Evans wasn't hurt, Torrey probably gets 1/4th or less of the production and snaps.

    At some point you have to trust your scouting department and trust why you drafted the kid(s) in the first place.

    Tandon Doss could be killing it in practice every day, but if Cam isn't incorporating him into the game plan, then what's the point?
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

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  10. #25

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I think you'd be hard pressed to find any fan on this board who would claim that the young receivers DONT have to prove themselves before taking the field. What myself and a lot of other folks don't get is that we draft these young receivers and then they NEVER see the field. Ever. There is no way they are that bad in practice, otherwise they'd be cut and wouldn't make it out of pre-season.

    My comment on the Steelers with Brown and Sanders was that they were given an opportunity to come in and play a handful of snaps during real game situations and they proved that they could hack it.
    NO

    NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!

    You just assume that Brown and Sanders just sat around in practice looking as good (bad) as Doss, DWill, Harper, whoever? Do you seriously have no concept of how absolutely wrong that is?

    All you need to see is how well all of the receivers the Ravens have drafted have performed after leaving the Ravens. Mark Clayton had the best showing of them, performing well in five games with the Rams before suffering a terrible injury, and now we'll likely never know whether he really could have been something with that team or not. Brandon Stokely had one 1k yard season. In Indi. With Peyton Manning. He also had three others with him that weren't close to as good.

    Pretty much every other Ravens draft pick at receiver has either never found another team interested in them, or has flopped on whatever team they went to. That's not an accident. That's not them not getting a shot. That's them sucking so bad, they don't deserve to get on the field!

    Guys that get drafted in mid-to-late rounds, come out of nowhere and shock on the field, don't actually come out of nowhere and shock on the field. They show off something at practice that makes a coach say "Hunh, maybe I ought to get that guy on the field and see if he can make some plays in a game."

    Because in the NFL, I promise you ... I lock-it-up guarantee you ... not one single coach says "Hunh, I know [receiver X] hasn't really done jack shit in practice, but maybe I should get him about 10-15 snaps next week in a game just to see what he can do."

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  11. #26

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    NO

    NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!

    You just assume that Brown and Sanders just sat around in practice looking as good (bad) as Doss, DWill, Harper, whoever? Do you seriously have no concept of how absolutely wrong that is?

    All you need to see is how well all of the receivers the Ravens have drafted have performed after leaving the Ravens. Mark Clayton had the best showing of them, performing well in five games with the Rams before suffering a terrible injury, and now we'll likely never know whether he really could have been something with that team or not. Brandon Stokely had one 1k yard season. In Indi. With Peyton Manning. He also had three others with him that weren't close to as good.

    Pretty much every other Ravens draft pick at receiver has either never found another team interested in them, or has flopped on whatever team they went to. That's not an accident. That's not them not getting a shot. That's them sucking so bad, they don't deserve to get on the field!

    Guys that get drafted in mid-to-late rounds, come out of nowhere and shock on the field, don't actually come out of nowhere and shock on the field. They show off something at practice that makes a coach say "Hunh, maybe I ought to get that guy on the field and see if he can make some plays in a game."

    Because in the NFL, I promise you ... I lock-it-up guarantee you ... not one single coach says "Hunh, I know [receiver X] hasn't really done jack shit in practice, but maybe I should get him about 10-15 snaps next week in a game just to see what he can do."

    - C -
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    This coaching staff is not going to put guys in the game that haven't shown they can do it in practice, and they aren't going to just "throw them in there to see what they can do" either. The coaching staff and FO would love for nothing better than for us to have young guys step up.

    Playing time is EARNED. When they earn it, they will get PT.




  12. #27
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    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by psuasskicker View Post
    NO

    NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!

    You just assume that Brown and Sanders just sat around in practice looking as good (bad) as Doss, DWill, Harper, whoever? Do you seriously have no concept of how absolutely wrong that is?
    I'm not assuming anything. What I know is that they were given an opportunity during game-time situations. Obviously they showed during practices that they should be given snaps during games.

    What I'm inferring (and perhaps it is wrong or incorrect, but whatever...it's my opinion and if you don't care for it then sorry cool guy) is that the young receivers the Ravens have are performing enough during practices and pre-season to make the team. Torrey stunk last pre-season. He was fast, yes, but his routes were really bad and his hands were pretty inconsistent (obviously largely due to lacking confidence, getting in his own way, etc). You learn more about players during game-time situations than you do during practice. You can have guys that kill it during practice and then on Sundays just can't do it and conversely you have guys who just don't practice well, but come game time they are on point. The only thing Torrey consistently proved last year was that he was stupid fast and was the deep threat that they had hoped they were drafting. He didn't really start to put it all together until after that Steelers game where he dropped multiple passes including what would have been a game-winning TD pass. He got his "swag" that game. He got confidence that game and the coaching staff got confidence in him. What I can't wrap my head around is why there is such an inherent method in the Ravens organization (not just on offense) to keep young guys on the bench as long as possible. Again, Steve Bisciotti commented on this after the season. Ozzie did as well. I'm not saying that Tandon or LaQuan have or have not earned playing time, but what I am saying is that I don't see why - as a coach - you wouldn't want to see what you've got in a real game situation.

    All you need to see is how well all of the receivers the Ravens have drafted have performed after leaving the Ravens. Mark Clayton had the best showing of them, performing well in five games with the Rams before suffering a terrible injury, and now we'll likely never know whether he really could have been something with that team or not. Brandon Stokely had one 1k yard season. In Indi. With Peyton Manning. He also had three others with him that weren't close to as good.

    Pretty much every other Ravens draft pick at receiver has either never found another team interested in them, or has flopped on whatever team they went to. That's not an accident. That's not them not getting a shot. That's them sucking so bad, they don't deserve to get on the field!
    Dude, I get that. I'm not arguing that. It's very well known (and I even commented on it earlier in this thread) that the Ravens scouting department (for whatever reason) cannot draft receivers to save their lives. It's so bad I feel like they should be trading draft picks to other teams for their receivers OR actually pony'ing up money to sign a young free agent receiver that is a legit receiver (i.e. not Jacoby Jones). They tried to do that last year with Lee Evans, but obviously that backfired.

    Again, this is why I 100% feel that they need to re-evaluate their receivers coach and draft process for receivers because they just can't seem to get anywhere with it. When there has really only been 1 solid receiver drafted (2 if you count Clayton) in the past decade, then there is something very, very, very wrong when it comes to evaluating receivers.


    Because in the NFL, I promise you ... I lock-it-up guarantee you ... not one single coach says "Hunh, I know [receiver X] hasn't really done jack shit in practice, but maybe I should get him about 10-15 snaps next week in a game just to see what he can do."

    - C -
    This made me laugh because it is 100% taking what I said completely out of context and/or twisting my words so you can use CAPS!!!!

    Come on man, lighten up.

    Show me in this thread where I stated that receivers don't need to earn playing time and where receivers don't have to produce during practice in order to get game time.

    All I've said is practice is all well and good (obviously good practice = playing time), but it's really hard to gauge what you've got until they are in a live situation against an unfamiliar opponent and the Ravens seemingly refuse to put young guys out on the field regardless of how well they're practicing.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 06-04-2012 at 07:50 AM.
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  13. #28

    Re: Jacoby Jones

    by all reports, Doss and even Williams, are very good in practice. its not like theyre dropping balls left and right like Torrey was, who actually got the bulk of PT anyway. I dont think there was one guy that said last years preseason that Torrey outplayed Doss. Not One. Because he didnt. he didnt prove jack shit in the preseason he just happened to be the only speed guy on the team after Evans went down. Boldin goes down instead, were probably talking about Doss being our next #1 WR. I dont think people realize how much you learn from game experience either. Its one thing to get on the field, you have to show a certain ability in practice which nobody here is arguing, but once on the field, you learn and enhance your game. Our young WRs that are showing signs but not getting PT are having their growth stunted, much like all of our WRs before Flacco have been by poor QB play. If Doss doesnt get some PT this year, Hell be hypothetically another year behind in his overall projectory. so the potential youre drafting for, youre never actually giving them a shot at achieving and isnt something they can get back in the NFL where careers are short.
    Last edited by JAB1985; 06-04-2012 at 08:19 AM.
    -JAB




  14. #29
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    Re: Jacoby Jones

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    by all reports, Doss and even Williams, are very good in practice. its not like theyre dropping balls left and right like Torrey was, who actually got the bulk of PT anyway. I dont think there was one guy that said last years preseason that Torrey outplayed Doss. Not One. Because he didnt. he didnt prove jack shit in the preseason he just happened to be the only speed guy on the team after Evans went down. Boldin goes down instead, were probably talking about Doss being our next #1 WR. I dont think people realize how much you learn from game experience either. Its one thing to get on the field, you have to show a certain ability in practice which nobody hear is arguing, but once on the field, you learn and enhance your game. Our young WRs that are showing signs but not getting PT are having their growth stunted, much like all of our WRs before Flacco have been by poor QB play. If Doss doesnt get some PT this year, Hell be hypothetically another year behind in his overall projectory. so the potential youre drafting for, youre never actually giving them a shot at achieving and isnt something they can get back in the NFL where careers are short.
    Agreed.

    David Reed is an excellent example. He was killing it during practice and pre-season sessions as a WR and not just a return specialist. There were multiple articles dating back to his rookie year talking about how good he looked running routes and how natural of a receiver he was. Even about some of his circus catches he was making out on the field. How many snaps has he gotten as a receiver since becoming a Raven? 5? Maybe 8 in 3 years? Granted, his injuries impeded on that a lot, but if he was doing so well during practices...wouldn't that garner some sort of playing experience?

    I just find it really odd that out of all these drafts the Ravens have only been able to come away with really 1 promising young receiver. I know landing a solid receiver is an extremely low probability anyway, but it is just really REALLY weird to me that the Ravens have such a tough time doing it.

    Pitt: Antonio Brown, Emmanuel Sanders
    Pats: Julian Edelman
    Giants - Cruz, Manningham
    Cowboys - Austin
    Saints - Colston, Moore
    Niners - Kyle Williams
    Raiders - Denarius Moore, Jacoby Ford
    Seahawks - Doug Baldwin
    Chicago - Earl Bennett, Johnny Knox (before he got hurt)
    Buffalo - Stevie Johnson, Donald Jones, David Nelson


    I know I'm kind of cherry picking there and every situation is different, but it's just really strange to me that the Ravens haven't or seemingly cannot hit on 1 mid/late round receiver.
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  15. #30
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    Re: Jacoby Jones

    The truth of the matter is that the Ravens coaching staff on the offensive side of the ball is completely risk averse and isn't going to take a chance. They feel it is better to perform at 85% consistently than to go for the home run. That is why they will not use their young players unless forced to do so. I kind of laugh when Flacco talks about 40 points a game. That just isn't happening with this coaching staff.




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