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  1. #97
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ballhawk View Post
    Just because it hasnt been done in a few years doesnt mean it cant happen. The ravens got pretty damn close last season. It has worked for the steelers over the last decade and the colts and saints both won SB's with a strong running game/defense.

    It wont happen with cameron, and im not sure the FO is equipped to build a high power passing attack. I think we could win a SB simply with a more proficient passing game.
    The Colts defense the year they won the Super Bowl was ranked 21st in yards and 23rd in points. They had the worst run defense in the NFL. Their rushing offense was ranked 18th

    The Saints had a top 10 defense but their rushing offense was ranked 28th

    The Giants last year had the 27th ranked defense and 32nd ranked rushing offense.

    The Packers had a very good defense but were 24th in rushing offense.

    The Steelers obviously had a great defense but were 23rd in rushing offense.

    This isn't the 80's and 90's when teams could dominate by rushing and playing great defense. Teams that do that can get close but they haven't won any Super Bowls in a long time. The NFL changed the rules to greatly favor the passing game. You're not going to win Championships playing the way you did before those rules were changed.





  2. #98
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Running and defense is no longer a winning formula at least when you are talking about winning Championships. The NFL has made sure of that by changing the rules. Run first teams do not win Super Bowls.
    In general, I agree with you.
    But, in the AFC North, to win the division, you must have a very good defense to stop the likes of the Steelers offense with Ben and the Bengals, sometimes pass happy offense.
    And you have to be able to run the ball, late in the season, outdoors, and in the weather.

    So, the Ravens seem to be doing everything, personnel wise.
    And I think that is a great thing.
    We can pass if we have to or want to or see that we should.
    And we have the personnel to run the ball down their throats if we should or need to.

    Being flexible and being able to adapt during a game is paramount to winning.
    If you don't have the personnel, you simply can't.





  3. #99

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Running and defense is no longer a winning formula at least when you are talking about winning Championships. The NFL has made sure of that by changing the rules. Run first teams do not win Super Bowls.
    I don't think we have nearly enough data points to make this kind of statement.

    The rules changes have made the passing game easier and more important in general, and this has made the QB position more important. But I would say that all we have definitively learned is that Championships can now be won with no defense (and/or running game) at all, if your passing game is high-powered enough (did not used to be the case). And that you very probably cannot win a Championship with a less-than-average QB regardless of the quality of your defense (and/or running game), a la the 2000 Ravens.

    But this is not the same as concluding, imo, that a run-first offense and good defense cannot win a Championship. The 49ers beat the Saints last year and were a muffed punt from being in the SB. We were a dropped pass away from the SB ourselves, though our 542 passing attempts (combined with our win total) certainly was closer to average than below-average.

    I think a defense/running/average(efficient)-passing (not below-average) formula is still viable, and more importantly it is almost the only viable formula for teams that do not have one of the small handful of uber-QBs (and their supporting casts). In other words, if Alex Smith is your QB, I would say you have a 0% chance of replicating the Packers, Colts, Saints formula, so why attempt it? And I think you have a better than 0% (and semi-decent even if not excellent) chance of winning a SB with the formula they used in 2011. The choice for the Ravens isn't quite as clear cut because we have a better QB for sure, but I still lean towards trying to keep the pieces in place (minor tweaking only) until our results show clearly that this formula cannot work.





  4. #100
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    The Colts defense the year they won the Super Bowl was ranked 21st in yards and 23rd in points. They had the worst run defense in the NFL. Their rushing offense was ranked 18th

    The Saints had a top 10 defense but their rushing offense was ranked 28th

    The Giants last year had the 27th ranked defense and 32nd ranked rushing offense.

    The Packers had a very good defense but were 24th in rushing offense.

    The Steelers obviously had a great defense but were 23rd in rushing offense.

    This isn't the 80's and 90's when teams could dominate by rushing and playing great defense. Teams that do that can get close but they haven't won any Super Bowls in a long time. The NFL changed the rules to greatly favor the passing game. You're not going to win Championships playing the way you did before those rules were changed.
    The Giants where bad defensively during the reg season, but their defense was lights out in the play offs. You cannot argue that their defense played a huge part in winning that SB.

    I think yes it seems to be a trend, but I don't believe in the whole "you can't win a SB with a run first team anymore". Because the 49ers and the Ravens came that close to facing each other in the SB, when you get as far as that in the play offs it can come down to anything. In the next 5 years I bet you any money at least ONE team who like to run the ball are going to win the SB (assuming they play good defense too).





  5. #101

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    I don't think we have nearly enough data points to make this kind of statement.

    The rules changes have made the passing game easier and more important in general, and this has made the QB position more important. But I would say that all we have definitively learned is that Championships can now be won with no defense (and/or running game) at all, if your passing game is high-powered enough (did not used to be the case). And that you very probably cannot win a Championship with a less-than-average QB regardless of the quality of your defense (and/or running game), a la the 2000 Ravens.

    But this is not the same as concluding, imo, that a run-first offense and good defense cannot win a Championship. The 49ers beat the Saints last year and were a muffed punt from being in the SB. We were a dropped pass away from the SB ourselves, though our 542 passing attempts (combined with our win total) certainly was closer to average than below-average.

    I think a defense/running/average(efficient)-passing (not below-average) formula is still viable, and more importantly it is almost the only viable formula for teams that do not have one of the small handful of uber-QBs (and their supporting casts). In other words, if Alex Smith is your QB, I would say you have a 0% chance of replicating the Packers, Colts, Saints formula, so why attempt it? And I think you have a better than 0% (and semi-decent even if not excellent) chance of winning a SB with the formula they used in 2011. The choice for the Ravens isn't quite as clear cut because we have a better QB for sure, but I still lean towards trying to keep the pieces in place (minor tweaking only) until our results show clearly that this formula cannot work.
    I agree. If the Ravens had Rodgers and the GB skill guys they would be more of a pass heavy attack.
    What the Ravens have has not proven they will win the SB, but I think they have proven they are consistantly capable of contending, and CAN win the SB or at least wouldacouldashoula. We were very close to having a Harbaugh SB, and a couple of unlucky breaks is all that kept it from happening, not some sort of flaw in the style of play.

    Leach pancaking Pat Willis was all I needed to see. I love having a big bad FB leading the way for Rice and would not have it any other way. I also can not see a better use of 3 mil in cap space. That is not even half what Grubbs cost.



    :T2:





  6. #102
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    I agree. If the Ravens had Rodgers and the GB skill guys they would be more of a pass heavy attack.
    What the Ravens have has not proven they will win the SB, but I think they have proven they are consistantly capable of contending, and CAN win the SB or at least wouldacouldashoula. We were very close to having a Harbaugh SB, and a couple of unlucky breaks is all that kept it from happening, not some sort of flaw in the style of play.

    Leach pancaking Pat Willis was all I needed to see. I love having a big bad FB leading the way for Rice and would not have it any other way. I also can not see a better use of 3 mil in cap space. That is not even half what Grubbs cost.
    Someone else mentioned it, what would a 10M ayear WR bring over a 6M a year one? Would we have better results? I bet tha 10M a year guy doesn't drop that pass that sends us to the SB. Over what did the running game do in the playoffs?





  7. #103
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    The Giants where bad defensively during the reg season, but their defense was lights out in the play offs. You cannot argue that their defense played a huge part in winning that SB.

    I think yes it seems to be a trend, but I don't believe in the whole "you can't win a SB with a run first team anymore". Because the 49ers and the Ravens came that close to facing each other in the SB, when you get as far as that in the play offs it can come down to anything. In the next 5 years I bet you any money at least ONE team who like to run the ball are going to win the SB (assuming they play good defense too).
    If you are happy with coming close then enjoy. I don't look back at the Reid Eagles teams that went to 4 straight NFC Champion games without ever winning a Super Bowl and want to be like them.

    I'll take that bet because the NFL made sure it can't happen. Offensive lineman can now hold as long as they want when pass blocking. Quarterbacks can barely be touched. Wide receivers have a huge advantage over the DB trying to cover them. It used to be I would have a nice long drive down the field eating up clock with my running game and then force you to play catch up against my killer defense. Now my opponent can just throw the ball and march right up the field no matter how far back. The NFL is closer to the CFL than it is to the game we used to see. That's the reality and you need to adapt if you want to win a Championship.





  8. #104
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    If you are happy with coming close then enjoy. I don't look back at the Reid Eagles teams that went to 4 straight NFC Champion games without ever winning a Super Bowl and want to be like them.

    I'll take that bet because the NFL made sure it can't happen. Offensive lineman can now hold as long as they want when pass blocking. Quarterbacks can barely be touched. Wide receivers have a huge advantage over the DB trying to cover them. It used to be I would have a nice long drive down the field eating up clock with my running game and then force you to play catch up against my killer defense. Now my opponent can just throw the ball and march right up the field no matter how far back. The NFL is closer to the CFL than it is to the game we used to see. That's the reality and you need to adapt if you want to win a Championship.
    I'll take that bet as well. The NFl has made no bones about the fact that they want to appeal to the casual fan, and the casual fan likes to see scoring.





  9. #105
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    We were a dropped pass and a screwed up special teams play from having a Ravens/9ers super bowl.

    People shoveling dirt on the idea that you can win it all with a strong D/ running game and a adequate passing game are simply wrong.
    My motto was always to keep swinging. Whether I was in a slump or feeling badly or having trouble off the field, the only thing to do was keep swinging. -Hank Aaron





  10. #106
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    There is an awful lot of negative Cam Cameron talk going on in here, and I'd like to know why? You guys realize he isn't the guy that drops passes right? Boldin, Housh, and Evans are not Cam Cameron. Just because you all don't think he is creative doesn't mean he isn't successful and good at what he does, nor does it mean he isn't creative. I actually think his pre snap shiftiness can be very creative. He has also run wildcat, double reverses, hb passes and many others. I know winning a Super Bowl would be great, and last year Cam did in fact call all the right plays to get us there. The players were the ones that dropped the ball last year and in years past, not Cameron. I'll be the first to say I don't always agree with his run/pass ratio, but he knows how to win games. That cannot be argued.





  11. #107

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by JustaslowZ06 View Post
    Someone else mentioned it, what would a 10M ayear WR bring over a 6M a year one? Would we have better results? I bet tha 10M a year guy doesn't drop that pass that sends us to the SB. Over what did the running game do in the playoffs?
    Did you see the Welker drop in the Super Bowl? Please the break up was actually good defense on the Pats' part.





  12. #108

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ActualSpamBot View Post
    We were a dropped pass and a screwed up special teams play from having a Ravens/9ers super bowl.

    People shoveling dirt on the idea that you can win it all with a strong D/ running game and a adequate passing game are simply wrong.

    I agree. In fact, I think the opposite is more true. From my vantage point, these pass heavy teams only seem to win it all once their D picks up the pace along iwth their run game. look at Peyton Mannings career. the one time he won it all was the one playoff stretch where his run game and defense played well.





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