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  1. #31
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?



    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    No. He is best blocking full back in the league without a doubt but the Ravens have a mediocre rushing attack with him. He has zero value outside of blocking the run. I personally don't think he and Ray Rice are complimentary. Rice is not a good power running back between the tackles. He is good but he is better in space. If they spread out the offense I believe Rice would be more effective running the ball. Too many little to no gain runs on 1st and 2nd down for an offense with a full back like Leach. With Rice as the running back I think the Ravens would be better using an H-back for someone that has value in the passing game.
    With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

    Hard to claim they are not complimentary.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  2. #32
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

    Hard to claim they are not complimentary.

    Well of course they are complimentary. Haha, what RB wouldn't be a compliment to arguably the best run blocking FB in the game?
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  3. #33

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

    Hard to claim they are not complimentary.
    Not to mention the fact Rice averaged 4.7 YPC, tied with MJD for best in the league last year for RB's who carried a heavy load (275 plus carries).

    Don't know how much more efficient you can get.




  4. #34

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    With Leach in the backfield, Rice had his best year ever as a pro.

    Hard to claim they are not complimentary.

    How do you define best year? I would argue that he and the Ravens had a more productive rushing attack in 2009. He average 5.3 ypc vs 4.7 ypc this past year. He had 5 less TDs but McGahee picked up 12 as a backup running back. Statistically he may have higher numbers because he was on the field more but the Ravens offense was far less productive. Total team rushing yards was 2200 to 1996. Rushing TDs were 22 in 2009 vs 15 in 2011.

    It was still a fullback led offense in 2009 but at least leRon had some value as an offensive weapon outside of just blocking. We have never seen Rice in an offense that utilizes TEs or H-backs instead of a FB.




  5. #35
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    I've said it before, Rice IMO would be just as effective, maybe even more so, in a single back spread offense. He's just that type of back. He doesn't routinely follow Leach's blocks anyway. So all that being said, no I don't think we need him. Is it nice to have the best blocking FB in the league? Sure. But Rice, and our O-Line for that matter are built and structured for a singleback 3wide set. Add in we have 3 very apable receivers, and factoring in splitting Dickson out who's useless with his hand in the dirt anyway and I'd say he is expendable.




  6. #36

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow View Post
    Not to mention the fact Rice averaged 4.7 YPC, tied with MJD for best in the league last year for RB's who carried a heavy load (275 plus carries).

    Don't know how much more efficient you can get.
    Not sure how the line for heavy load gets set at 275.

    McCoy averaged 4.8 on 273 Carries.
    McGahee averaged 4.8 on 249 carries.
    Mathews and Forte averaged 4.9 on 200+ carries but missed some games.

    More importantly the Ravens averaged 4.3 ypc which was the average ypc for all teams. 11 teams were higher and two teams were tied with the Ravens. Hardly a stellar rushing attack for a team that deploys the best blocking full back and a run first mentality.




  7. #37

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    Not sure how the line for heavy load gets set at 275.

    McCoy averaged 4.8 on 273 Carries.
    McGahee averaged 4.8 on 249 carries.
    Mathews and Forte averaged 4.9 on 200+ carries but missed some games.

    More importantly the Ravens averaged 4.3 ypc which was the average ypc for all teams. 11 teams were higher and two teams were tied with the Ravens. Hardly a stellar rushing attack for a team that deploys the best blocking full back and a run first mentality.
    You were talking about Rice/Leach, not the entire team.

    And you can't use backs with low attempts, skews the numbers. Sample size is too small.

    Rice, MJD and McCoy were the 3 best who stayed healthy and played every week. Throw Willis in there too whatever, doesn't change the productivity of Leach/Rice.

    And on 3rd down when the "other" backs are in the game dragging the team YPC down Leach is on the bench.




  8. #38
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    We also had a MUCH better offensive line in 2009.

    We had Jarred Gaither at left tackle for a good part of 2009 who was a very good left tackle no matter what anyone here says. Ben Grubbs and Yanda both had stellar years at guard as usual, Matt Birk was that bit younger and fresher and had a very solid year in his first season as a Raven. Oher was one of the best right tackles as a rookie. Rice didn't have as much attempts either, we where also playing the NFC North that year against some very weak run defensive teams. You cannot compare the two years




  9. #39

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow View Post
    You were talking about Rice/Leach, not the entire team.

    And you can't use backs with low attempts, skews the numbers. Sample size is too small.

    Rice, MJD and McCoy were the 3 best who stayed healthy and played every week. Throw Willis in there too whatever, doesn't change the productivity of Leach/Rice.

    And on 3rd down when the "other" backs are in the game dragging the team YPC down Leach is on the bench.
    The thread is about the value of Leach so the team ypc is valid. The rushing offense was less productive in 2011 than in 2009. Rice averaged 5.3 and McGahee 5.0 with Leron as the fullback vs Rice 4.7 and Williams 4.1 with Leach.




  10. #40
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    The thread is about the value of Leach so the team ypc is valid. The rushing offense was less productive in 2011 than in 2009. Rice averaged 5.3 and McGahee 5.0 with Leron as the fullback vs Rice 4.7 and Williams 4.1 with Leach.
    Read my comment above to explain why this was the case.

    Honestly I can understand people questioning if we need him, and question his contract. But to say we'd be better off without him, or saying we need a new full back is absolutely crazy IMO. I wonder how our rushing offense would have looked in 09 with that Oline and Leach on the team.




  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    How do you define best year? I would argue that he and the Ravens had a more productive rushing attack in 2009. He average 5.3 ypc vs 4.7 ypc this past year. He had 5 less TDs but McGahee picked up 12 as a backup running back. Statistically he may have higher numbers because he was on the field more but the Ravens offense was far less productive. Total team rushing yards was 2200 to 1996. Rushing TDs were 22 in 2009 vs 15 in 2011.

    It was still a fullback led offense in 2009 but at least leRon had some value as an offensive weapon outside of just blocking. We have never seen Rice in an offense that utilizes TEs or H-backs instead of a FB.
    Not sure why you moved the goal posts here.

    You stated that Rice and Leach do not compliment each other. I argued Rice had his best year statistically since the addition of Leach. Why you've adjusted your point towards the entire Ravens rushing attack is mysterious at best.

    Harbs said bringing in Leach freed up Rice to not only be a rushing threat but to add a level to the receiving game we saw in 2009, with Rice being more involved.

    The stats bear this out. He saw increases in total yards, TD's and almost every other measurable. Both players credit each others great seasons to one another.

    Maybe sticking to your original premise would serve you better?
    Last edited by HoustonRaven; 05-29-2012 at 07:56 PM.
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  12. #42
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    If Rice had actually followed half of Leach's lead blocks, he would have had 20% more yards than he did.

    Yeah, we need him.


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  13. #43

    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Not sure why you moved the goal posts here.

    You stated that Rice and Leach do not compliment each other. I argued Rice had his best year statistically since the addition of Leach. Why you've adjusted your point towards the entire Ravens rushing attack is mysterious at best.

    Harbs said bringing in Leach freed up Rice to not only be a rushing threat but to add a level to the receiving game we saw in 2009, with Rice being more involved.

    The stats bear this out. He saw increases in total yards, TD's and almost every other measurable. Both players credit each others great seasons to one another.

    Maybe sticking to your original premise would serve you better?

    Did not change the argument. Pointed out that Rice was more productive in 2009. Then went on to prove that the entire Ravens rushing attack was more productive in 2009 without Rice. You missed the entire point of my initial post which is that I think Rice would be better in an offense without a fullback. You pointed out that you thought he had his best year with Leach. Rice has only been in an offense that utilizes a fullback completely missing the point of the initial post.




  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    Did not change the argument. Pointed out that Rice was more productive in 2009. Then went on to prove that the entire Ravens rushing attack was more productive in 2009 without Rice. You missed the entire point of my initial post which is that I think Rice would be better in an offense without a fullback. You pointed out that you thought he had his best year with Leach. Rice has only been in an offense that utilizes a fullback completely missing the point of the initial post.
    2009 featured the tandem of Rice at RB and McClain at FB. As you argue, that was Rices' best year.

    2010 saw a mostly two back set of Rice and McGahee. Rice had his worst statistical year.

    2011 featured the return of a FB with the result of his best statistical year.

    Your claim of Leach and Rice not complimenting one another looks even more thin with the added analysis of 2009.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  15. #45
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    Re: Seriously, Do The Ravens Need Vonta Leach?

    I seriously cannot believe that we were 1 play away from a Super Bowl and fans are on here asking questions like this. Leach's presence on the field is definitely helpful. That cannot be argued. I believe Leach plays special teams (at least sometimes) also and that can't be forgotten. Ever see Le'Ron play special teams? When you use words like "need" is where you make your mistake. Does any team "need" any particular player? Do the Colts "need" Peyton Manning? Did the Redskins "need" Carlos Rogers? Did the Eagles "need" Brian Dawkins? Did the Ravens "need" Foxworth or Josh Wilson? The answer to all of these questions is going to be based on your own opinion, therefore, "need" isn't the correct word to use in my opinion, and "want" is. And the only real or objective answer to all these questions is "maybe". This isn't Madden. Do The Ravens need Leach? Maybe....should we want him? Definitely. In my opinion his leadership and presence was seen and felt last year in a big, big way. Without him I think we would have seen MANY more sacks and tackles for a loss as an offense last year. Our O line last year was in relatively decent shape, and certainly wasn't bad, but they weren't the mauling type of O line we had gotten used to when Le'Ron was here. That made Leach's job a little tougher than Le'Ron's as a whole. Sure Le'Ron is faster than Leach and has great hands and juke moves, etc., but the guy is a straight up cry baby and hates to block. He wasn't used much in KC last year....gee I wonder why. Leach is an in your face, "I want to hurt you" kind of player. Sounds like a real Raven to me. Sure he makes good money, that's part of being a Pro Bowl starter and the best at what you do in the entire NFL. It's not like he's making $7million a year or something. As I said, 1 play from a Super Bowl. When was the last time before Leach got here that we were 1 play away from the Super Bowl? I'm not saying Leach was the answer to all our problems last year, obviously he was not, but between his in your face presence and making it 1 play from a Super Bowl, how can we really complain? Some fans are just too snobby.




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