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  1. #61
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    We went 4 for 5 while he was out, including two playoff wins.
    Rice did squat against the Patriots.

    It was all Flacco that drove the field on that last series.

    That's not a knock against Rice either. Him being on the field alone makes the offense better, but Flacco is the most important player on the offensive side of the ball and he's proven that he can make plays with the game on the line.
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  2. Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    We went 4 for 5 while he was out, including two playoff wins.
    No way you can compare that '08 team to the team we had last year. Espesically our offense.

    Flacco threw the ball 428 times during that season.

    Between McClain, McGahee, and Rice had over 500 carries between them. They were a run first team. It was Flacco rookie season.


    Our offense has completly flip. Flacco has improve and we have more offensive weapons. Cam play calling just sucks so we dont see the full capability of our offense week end and week out. Ray Rice has establish himself as being our only playmaker. Maybe you can say Torrey Smith because he is a legit deep threat but he is not going to juke you out. Ray Rice can do it all out of the backfield and he had Ricky Williamas backing him up last year.




  3. #63

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The main "knock" I have about Foster when looking at his stats is that Tate absolutely crushed it as well, and did so on extremely statistically significant number of touches (188 total, 175 rushes). He was similarly efficient as Foster. There are generally two ways to explain this, 1) their system is such that all RBs look better than they are (or would on another team) while in it, a la the Denver Broncos with TD, Gary, Anderson, Portis, etc, and/or 2) Tate is actually a top notch NFL RB trapped behind another top notch RB. Either or both could be true. I think it is a combination of both, but regardless, I think it takes a bit of luster off of Foster's statistical accomplishments (not much, but a little).
    Looking at the Broncos/Texans comparison is intriguing. Could be system, which it clearly is a strong system for a RB in general, but i personally do believe that Tate is a quality back on his own accord. Im interested to see what Pierce, who is a solid back but not quite the prospect Tate was, can do in our system. I think its a good possibility were in the same situation and Rices stats and/or true ability may come into question as we ourselves have a RB friendly system.
    -JAB




  4. #64

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    We went 4 for 5 while he was out, including two playoff wins.
    True, but Rice wasn't even our feature back that year. LeRon was. And the only game of those 5 where the RB position excelled was the Dallas game where McGahee and LeRon struck back-to-back on huge runs in the 4th qtr to seal the deal.

    Because of our defense, we can win games when the RB position struggles. We can win games when the QB position struggles, and we actually have won more than a couple games where both the RB and QB position struggles. The game that sent us out in 2008 was a game where the Qb and RB position struggled and the defense couldn't do anything/enough to win the game




  5. #65

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Looking at the Broncos/Texans comparison is intriguing. Could be system, which it clearly is a strong system for a RB in general, but i personally do believe that Tate is a quality back on his own accord. Im interested to see what Pierce, who is a solid back but not quite the prospect Tate was, can do in our system. I think its a good possibility were in the same situation and Rices stats and/or true ability may come into question as we ourselves have a RB friendly system.
    I agree. The key will be how Pierce catches the ball out of the backfield (assuming Cam is set in his ways, as I think he is). Replacing the 1200-1300 yards on the ground isn't nearly as hard as replacing the 600-700 yards receiving plus the 1200-1300 yards on the ground (in a single spot on the field). To me, it is the extra receiver or quality checkdown that we would miss the most, not the first down run for 4-5 yards. The latter is easier to replace.

    As I said when Pierce was drafted, I think the Ravens are leaning away from a longterm deal for Rice now. Maybe they always were, but I am not sure there is any reason for the Ravens to even agree to or offer Rice the Foster/McCoy type numbers until they get a look at Pierce. In terms of risk reward, I don't think there is much risk to making Rice play the season under the tag; if he has a similar season to his best, he still wouldn't fetch much more (even if more, which isn't a given) than Foster/McCoy numbers on the open market. He maybe would leave out of spite i guess is a small risk, but I don't see much reason to pay him around the max he could ever possibly get, right now after taking Pierce, before looking at Pierce.




  6. #66
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by mommathurgoesthatman View Post
    Agreed but seriously if Flacco is a lock to be our franchise QB than why did Cam stick around another year? I know for a fact Cam will not be here for the next 5 years(I hope) so why keep wasting time with him? That tells you a lot about who is calling the shots.
    Cam stuck around because he's good friends with the head coach. We know there isn't a football explanation for it. The Ravens were 1 dropped ball away from the Super Bowl and they weren't looking to make changes based on those results. Honestly I can't Cam at this point but that's the only thing that makes sense.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  7. #67
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by mommathurgoesthatman View Post
    No way you can compare that '08 team to the team we had last year. Espesically our offense.

    Flacco threw the ball 428 times during that season.

    Between McClain, McGahee, and Rice had over 500 carries between them. They were a run first team. It was Flacco rookie season.


    Our offense has completly flip. Flacco has improve and we have more offensive weapons. Cam play calling just sucks so we dont see the full capability of our offense week end and week out. Ray Rice has establish himself as being our only playmaker. Maybe you can say Torrey Smith because he is a legit deep threat but he is not going to juke you out. Ray Rice can do it all out of the backfield and he had Ricky Williamas backing him up last year.
    You made the comparison, not me.

    I agree with the quoted post. But you said you were scared when he was out. I showed you had no reason to be scared, that he was not (and still is not) 100% of our offense as you claimed.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  8. Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    You made the comparison, not me.

    I agree with the quoted post. But you said you were scared when he was out. I showed you had no reason to be scared, that he was not (and still is not) 100% of our offense as you claimed.
    Yea, thats how i felt at that time seeing him play before he got hurt that year. He was a great low key player that no one knew about and made plays for us. He complimented McGahee and McClain, our entire offense really. Maybe if he would have played we would have went to the superbowl...idk? Flacco didnt have a good playoff game his rookie season.

    Now(last season) im saying i cant imagine what our offense would look like with him out the line up. Ray Rice is our only proven back. His skill set makes our offense and he bails out Cam and Joe game after game.




  9. #69

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by mommathurgoesthatman View Post
    Yea, thats how i felt at that time seeing him play before he got hurt that year. He was a great low key player that no one knew about and made plays for us. He complimented McGahee and McClain, our entire offense really. Maybe if he would have played we would have went to the superbowl...idk? Flacco didnt have a good playoff game his rookie season.

    Now(last season) im saying i cant imagine what our offense would look like with him out the line up. Ray Rice is our only proven back. His skill set makes our offense and he bails out Cam and Joe game after game.
    Try to think of it this way. If Ray Rice were out, the offense would still run the ball between the tackles, send both receivers deep on sideline routes, and throw to the RB and TE over the middle if the WRs weren't open. The offense would not change without Rice, I guarantee you that.

    Whoever was playing RB would still produce 30% or so of the total offensive yardage. We might be less effective, maybe less first downs and less TDs, but the offense itself would look no different systematically.

    We've won games before when Rice was not effective. Counting last year's playoffs, the Ravens are 6-2 when Rice posts less than 4 yards a carry.




  10. #70

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    We've won games before when Rice was not effective. Counting last year's playoffs, the Ravens are 6-2 when Rice posts less than 4 yards a carry.
    Yeah, but there is a difference between getting 3 yards per carry vs. 8-9 in the box, allowing your QB/WRs single coverage and getting 3 yards per carry vs. 7 man fronts. A big difference, and one that doesn't show up on the stat sheet, but it would show up if you swap in a significantly less talented back (would show in your passing stats).

    I also am not sure where you got the 6-2 record. Counting games from 2008 isn't really fair since Rice didn't play in them; this is different than playing and struggling.

    I don't think the "whoever was playing RB" would do what Rice has done type of argument is all that strong. And I concede the rushing aspect might be replaced fairly easily (though not with any old random guy you find), but the receiving ability is a whole different matter, imo. There are certain kinds of backs that are not built for receiving, and most of the time the ones who are built for receiving can't carry the rushing load.

    I certainly agree that Cam would call the same plays and the RB would get the same load. I am just sort of disagreeing with the premise that the same load would equal the same stats or same Ravens success regardless of the RB.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 05-18-2012 at 04:36 PM.




  11. Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    I know I'll be in the minority here, but if the going rate for running backs is 3 years $21 million, as those are the reported guarantees, Rice should take a page from the C-Mac handbook and embrace the tag.

    Rice gets $7.7 million for signing the tag even if he's hurt on the first day of camp. Matt Forte got the tag even though he finished the year with a torn ACL. What could happen to Rice this year that'd have the Ravens ready to let him go for nothing once the season is over? Even if Rice tore his ACL, it's a safe bet that he'd get tagged again at $9.1 million.

    That means if Rice gets through this year without being absolutely crippled he's guaranteed $16.8 million dollars. If something happened that ended his career, I have to think there'd be a place for him in the organization and he'd be well taken care of...but that's beside the point. After those 2 years under the tag he'd be a 27-year old free agent with 32 teams bidding on him. If he's still a star he'll cash in big, if not he'll only need $4 million in 2014 to be on par with the $21 million the others got for the same period of time.

    It's easy to state the worst case scenario, but what would have to happen to Rice in 2012 to make the team walk away from him altogether for no compensation, or that'll have every team in the league unwilling to take a chance on him? Short of that, he's pretty much guaranteed $17 million over 2 years if he just signs the franchise tag.

    This is the agent trying to get paid today because his tomorrow is much more up in the air than even an NFL RB. It's also a nice feather in his cap to show the big numbers in a long term deal to future potential clients. If Rice holds out or shows up less than ready, he'll only be hurting himself by increasing the potential for injury thereby decreasing his own potential to get paid.




  12. #72

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    Yeah, but there is a difference between getting 3 yards per carry vs. 8-9 in the box, allowing your QB/WRs single coverage and getting 3 yards per carry vs. 7 man fronts. A big difference, and one that doesn't show up on the stat sheet, but it would show up if you swap in a significantly less talented back (would show in your passing stats).

    I also am not sure where you got the 6-2 record. Counting games from 2008 isn't really fair since Rice didn't play in them; this is different than playing and struggling.

    I don't think the "whoever was playing RB" would do what Rice has done type of argument is all that strong. And I concede the rushing aspect might be replaced fairly easily (though not with any old random guy you find), but the receiving ability is a whole different matter, imo. There are certain kinds of backs that are not built for receiving, and most of the time the ones who are built for receiving can't carry the rushing load.

    I certainly agree that Cam would call the same plays and the RB would get the same load. I am just sort of disagreeing with the premise that the same load would equal the same stats or same Ravens success regardless of the RB.
    The rushing aspect of Rice and the Ravens offense is not as good as it should be considering the scheme and personnel. The lack of success running the ball on first and second down has hampered the offense. The Ravens are one of the few teams that employ a full back who is really not anything but a blocker. They have big oline that is geared towards running the ball. Yet with this personnel they struggle to run the ball successfully on first and second down. The Offense usually only has two receivers and a TE in the game that are targets in the passing game so of course Rice's stats in the passing game are going to be high. For all the emphasis on having a good running game it should at least be a top 10 rushing offense but it is not.




  13. #73

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Thyrl View Post
    Rice gets $7.7 million for signing the tag even if he's hurt on the first day of camp. Matt Forte got the tag even though he finished the year with a torn ACL. What could happen to Rice this year that'd have the Ravens ready to let him go for nothing once the season is over? Even if Rice tore his ACL, it's a safe bet that he'd get tagged again at $9.1 million.

    That means if Rice gets through this year without being absolutely crippled he's guaranteed $16.8 million dollars. If something happened that ended his career, I have to think there'd be a place for him in the organization and he'd be well taken care of...but that's beside the point. After those 2 years under the tag he'd be a 27-year old free agent with 32 teams bidding on him. If he's still a star he'll cash in big, if not he'll only need $4 million in 2014 to be on par with the $21 million the others got for the same period of time.
    Not sure I agree with you that he'd get the tag a second time. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the reason the Ravens drafted a RB in the 3rd round was at least partially to send a shot across Rice's bow... as in, "hey Ray, here's your replacement if you don't want to play ball with us."

    If Pierce is capable of producing 80% of what Rice does by the end of his rookie year and doesn't appear to have hit his ceiling, why on earth would you pay Rice $9M+ when you have that kind of production for less than 10% of the money?




  14. Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Not sure I agree with you that he'd get the tag a second time. In fact, I'm pretty sure that the reason the Ravens drafted a RB in the 3rd round was at least partially to send a shot across Rice's bow... as in, "hey Ray, here's your replacement if you don't want to play ball with us."

    If Pierce is capable of producing 80% of what Rice does by the end of his rookie year and doesn't appear to have hit his ceiling, why on earth would you pay Rice $9M+ when you have that kind of production for less than 10% of the money?
    Good point, but he'd still get the benefit of 31 bidders on the open market and more leverage as a result. Also if Rice is Rice we likely won't see enough of Pierce to make that call. I also think that if you're right, then the point is moot. If the Ravens think that Pierce is capable, then it's unlikely the'd even offer Rice the 3 years $21 mil that seems realistic, so it's almost a foregone conclusion he'll have to play under the tag.




  15. #75

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by Thyrl View Post
    Good point, but he'd still get the benefit of 31 bidders on the open market and more leverage as a result. Also if Rice is Rice we likely won't see enough of Pierce to make that call. I also think that if you're right, then the point is moot. If the Ravens think that Pierce is capable, then it's unlikely the'd even offer Rice the 3 years $21 mil that seems realistic, so it's almost a foregone conclusion he'll have to play under the tag.
    You're probably right, and I think that the fact that they drafted Pierce may be indicative of where they think the state of negotiations with Rice is. I didn't follow the draft religiously, but I didn't hear a whole lot of speculation about the Ravens taking a running back early in the draft... much less being willing to trade up to get one. The fact that they did might lead one to believe that negotiations with Rice are not likely to come to terms that would mean a long stay in Baltimore for him...




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