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  1. #31
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy



    Quote Originally Posted by ravensnhokies View Post
    Pierce would be Cameron's entire offense if he was the featured back. Call it like it is, Cam offense is a RB's wet dream but unfortunately a nightmare for a QB.

    Last year, Rice left a lot of yards on field. The evidence was Ricky Williams being the more productive RB in the playoffs. Ray danced too much instead of hitting hole that Leach blew up. A 5yd straight ahead dive is a lot better than Ray's too frequent tapdance 2yd gains. Sorry I just don't think Ray is a great Running RB. Good but not great. (Passcatching RB he is arguably the best)

    If the Ravens do cave in to Ray's agent demands, and he does get a deal that is substantial better than Foster & McCoy contracts, I will be very pissed at the Ravens FO. It's simply bad business. Thankfully the FO is smart. Why do you think the drafted Pierce anyways... It lessen the blow of Ray's likely holding out and being in bad 'football' shape for the 1H of the year.
    Are you saying that Pierce would be just as productive as Rice if he was the starter? Do you actually think Rice is going to hold out that long and get out of shape? I don't think so my self, he is a hard working character, and isn't the type to do that, he respects this team too much.




  2. #32
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Are you saying that Pierce would be just as productive as Rice if he was the starter? Do you actually think Rice is going to hold out that long and get out of shape? I don't think so my self, he is a hard working character, and isn't the type to do that, he respects this team too much.


    If the Ravens believed that Rice was that easy to replace they wouldn't be giving him franchise tag money.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  3. #33

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by redmike34 View Post
    Hensley's got a slightly different take...

    http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/pos...-help-ray-rice
    doing 3 year totals when rice was a starter all 3 and McCoy and Foster were backups their first one. bad comparison and bad article. Cant believe that guy gets paid when its such horribly biased "reporting". theyre actually very similar with McCoy being the low guy, imo, while Foster and Rice compare very favorably as far as total yards production. I feel Foster brings more personally but as far as tier and contracts go they should be all around the same due to similar production, personal opinions aside.

    I wouldnt say McCoy had a vastly better year than Rice. I think all things equal they were pretty close. you could argue that McCoy has more upside since hes been steadily getting better every year while Rice has been pretty steady around 1300/600 with only yearly variance, but that can go the other way too since Rice has been more proven. I think this contract should put Rice in his place. I dont think he deserves more than Foster but i can understand wanting more than McCoy. I dont think theres reason for him to be getting a million more a year than either of them. Rice is a very good back, great even, but i dont think hes irreplaceable or "elite" (power running be the only knock really) which i can argue with those two since they have the size speed and power to be "complete". I think eventually they up the guaranteed money a bit to make him happy while still making his per/year around that 8-9/year number.
    -JAB




  4. #34
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    I imagine the FO and Ozzie have a fair deal comparable to McCoy and Foster on the table and Ray Rice's agent wants the Moon.

    Again, love Ray, but the league has set the scale at which he is to be paid. He is rolling the dice on his career.

    I am sure in his head, he thinks he can walk and get AP money from some other team, you know what, he is right. There is an idiot owner out there that would pay Rice CJ2K or AP money, but Baltimore won't.

    Unfortunate for everyone we had to use the tag. No one will part with 2 first rounders for him, so he will play under the tag, dangerous for a back in my opinion considering one injury and more than a few games would effectively cost them millions.

    Plus Flacco's new deal is looming and in the end, QB's are 10 times harder to find then a serviceable back. If negotiations with Flacco go south as well, Flacco would get the tag and Rice will walk.

    I'd not like to see this scenario play out, but I think Rice's agent wants to gamble for what is behind door number 3, it is inevitable.

    And for those that like to point out we had players play under the tag for two plus years, the were defensive players. Not that they don't get hurt, but they lay more hits than they take in comparison to a back.

    p.s. Hensley sucks, he is arguably the worst writer ESPN has hired in a long time. I miss James Walker.




  5. #35

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Are you saying that Pierce would be just as productive as Rice if he was the starter? Do you actually think Rice is going to hold out that long and get out of shape? I don't think so my self, he is a hard working character, and isn't the type to do that, he respects this team too much.
    No, what he was saying is that if Pierce were the starting RB he would be targeted on a similar % of plays as Rice because of the nature of our offense--and that would likely lead to him posting big numbers, not necessarily on the level of Rice but big nonetheless.

    No matter who we have at RB, he (or they) are going to be running the ball a lot and catching the ball a lot. Our offense is built around around a few very simple concepts: 1) run the ball between the tackles, 2) send the WRs on deep sideline routes, 3) if the deep routes aren't there, throw the ball short to the back or TE. If we're not running the ball with the RB, there's a pretty high chance we're going to be throwing it to him particularly because our WRs have historically not been very good at getting deep (Mason could work the sidelines with the best of them, but not so much on the deeper routes.)

    If you look at the pass target % over the last few years, our offense is throwing a much higher percentage of passes to RBs, but not all teams do that. Some teams, like the Patriots, Packers, Giants, Steelers, etc. throw nowhere near as frequently to the backs as we do because their schemes are much more sophisticated and balanced.

    That has always been the Cam Cameron offense. Obviously it has worked great when he had superb RBs like Tomlinson and Rice, but even in 2007 when the Dolphins had crap at RB they were still throwing tons of balls to backs. Cam Cameron's offense is run the exact same way no matter what 11 players are on the field. Now, if Rice were to go down, I don't think Pierce/Allen/Berry could produce anywhere near as much as Rice, but they would still be targeted plenty.




  6. #36
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    I think Rice and McCoy are two of the more comparable backs in the NFL currently. Both are smaller (Rice is "thicker", but McCoy is taller) backs that utilize a nice variety of burst, vision, and elusiveness. The one edge that McCoy has is he does have that extra gear when he gets out into open spaces. Rice doesn't have that.

    Regardless, what this is telling the rest of the league is that two well run franchises have paid their star RB's who happen to be arguably two of the best YOUNG rb's in the league significantly less than the deals that CJ and AP (and even DeAngelo Williams) signed. They've set the market for RB's.

    I could see the Ravens going maybe slightly more than McCoy's deal, but not much. Foster's was 5 for $43 with just under $21 guaranteed and McCoy's had relatively the same guaranteed money and was 5 for $45.

    Rice's deal should be somewhere in the vicinity of a 5 yr deal for $45-46 mill with about $21-22 guaranteed.
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  7. #37
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    No, what he was saying is that if Pierce were the starting RB he would be targeted on a similar % of plays as Rice because of the nature of our offense--and that would likely lead to him posting big numbers, not necessarily on the level of Rice but big nonetheless.

    No matter who we have at RB, he (or they) are going to be running the ball a lot and catching the ball a lot. Our offense is built around around a few very simple concepts: 1) run the ball between the tackles, 2) send the WRs on deep sideline routes, 3) if the deep routes aren't there, throw the ball short to the back or TE. If we're not running the ball with the RB, there's a pretty high chance we're going to be throwing it to him particularly because our WRs have historically not been very good at getting deep (Mason could work the sidelines with the best of them, but not so much on the deeper routes.)

    If you look at the pass target % over the last few years, our offense is throwing a much higher percentage of passes to RBs, but not all teams do that. Some teams, like the Patriots, Packers, Giants, Steelers, etc. throw nowhere near as frequently to the backs as we do because their schemes are much more sophisticated and balanced.

    That has always been the Cam Cameron offense. Obviously it has worked great when he had superb RBs like Tomlinson and Rice, but even in 2007 when the Dolphins had crap at RB they were still throwing tons of balls to backs. Cam Cameron's offense is run the exact same way no matter what 11 players are on the field. Now, if Rice were to go down, I don't think Pierce/Allen/Berry could produce anywhere near as much as Rice, but they would still be targeted plenty.
    Good post.
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  8. #38
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Here's a blog I wrote a few months ago comparing Rice and Foster and kind of outlining the overall worth if you consider Arian Foster to be the best RB in the NFL currently (as I do).

    http://profootballxo.blogspot.com/20...ice-worth.html

    I only compared the last 2 years because Foster has really only been a starter/consistent contributor for the past 2 seasons. If hacks like Jamison Hensley did some research they'd know that too and wouldn't look like a moron.

    Baltimore's offensive production - 2,054 plays| 10,585 total yards| 735 total points.
    Rice's total offensive contribution (32 regular season games) - 737 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 3,842 total yards| 147 total points [21 total TD's].
    Value to offense - 35.8% of total plays| 36.3% of total yards| 20% of total offensive points.

    Houston's offensive production - 2,075 plays| 12,140 total yards| 771 total points.
    Foster's total offensive contribution (26 regular season games) - 724 total contributing plays [rushes + receptions]| 4,061 total yards| 180 total points [30 total TD's].
    Value to offense - 34.89% of total plays| 33.5% of total yards| 23.4% of total offensive points.

    If we were to break it down even further we would see that Rice accounted for 19% of the receiving yards, 63% of the rushes, 67% of the rushing yards, 65% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. Essentially, Ray Rice is 1/3 of the entire offensive production over the past two seasons. When we look at Foster we find that he accounted for 63% of the rushes, 16% of the passing yards, 63% of the rushing yards, 68% of the rushing TD's, and 9% of the passing TD's. While Rice has the edge on the ratio of rushing yardage and receiving yards, Foster has more points scored, more rushing yards, and more total yards from scrimmage in 6 less games than Rice. It's fair to say that if Foster had played or received significant snaps in those 6 games he'd be substantially farther ahead than Rice.
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  9. #39
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    No, what he was saying is that if Pierce were the starting RB he would be targeted on a similar % of plays as Rice because of the nature of our offense--and that would likely lead to him posting big numbers, not necessarily on the level of Rice but big nonetheless.

    No matter who we have at RB, he (or they) are going to be running the ball a lot and catching the ball a lot. Our offense is built around around a few very simple concepts: 1) run the ball between the tackles, 2) send the WRs on deep sideline routes, 3) if the deep routes aren't there, throw the ball short to the back or TE. If we're not running the ball with the RB, there's a pretty high chance we're going to be throwing it to him particularly because our WRs have historically not been very good at getting deep (Mason could work the sidelines with the best of them, but not so much on the deeper routes.)

    If you look at the pass target % over the last few years, our offense is throwing a much higher percentage of passes to RBs, but not all teams do that. Some teams, like the Patriots, Packers, Giants, Steelers, etc. throw nowhere near as frequently to the backs as we do because their schemes are much more sophisticated and balanced.

    That has always been the Cam Cameron offense. Obviously it has worked great when he had superb RBs like Tomlinson and Rice, but even in 2007 when the Dolphins had crap at RB they were still throwing tons of balls to backs. Cam Cameron's offense is run the exact same way no matter what 11 players are on the field. Now, if Rice were to go down, I don't think Pierce/Allen/Berry could produce anywhere near as much as Rice, but they would still be targeted plenty.
    Good post, I totally agree with you, but not entirely sure if that's what ravenshokies meant. "Pierce would be Cameron's entire offense if he was the featured back". I'm not sure if Pierce is good enough yet to be Cams whole offense, and I do think if Rice was playing for the Giants, they would be using Rice a lot more than what they use Bradshaw or Jacobs.

    Also don't forget that after the catch Rice is great in space and beats a hell a lot of defenders, I don't care if Rice is targeted more in the passing game than any RB in the league, he is one of the most dangerous weapons after the catch. Now if you put a good back like Lynch or Frank Gore there, I don't think they would be as good as a receiver even if they where targeted as much as Rice is in the passing game. The only backs that can compare to Rice as a receiver are Foster, Forte, MJD, and McCoy right now IMO.




  10. #40

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    The only backs that can compare to Rice as a receiver are Foster, Forte, MJD, and McCoy right now IMO.
    dont forget CJ2K, he might have rushed for more yards but hes no slouch in the passing game. Sproles might not be as good of a runner, but again, great receiving RB. I think Mathews has shown the ability and likely will be on that tier sooner than later. I dont think you can leave Johnson and Sproles off as far as best recieving RBs though, theyre atleast comparable if not outright better. There will be young backs from this class that show the ability as well, whether pierce is one of those is yet to be seen.
    -JAB




  11. #41
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    dont forget CJ2K, he might have rushed for more yards but hes no slouch in the passing game. Sproles might not be as good of a runner, but again, great receiving RB. I think Mathews has shown the ability and likely will be on that tier sooner than later. I dont think you can leave Johnson and Sproles off as far as best recieving RBs though, theyre atleast comparable if not outright better. There will be young backs from this class that show the ability as well, whether pierce is one of those is yet to be seen.
    Don't talk to me about "CJ2K" after this past season. No way in hell are any of those backs "outright better" as a receiver. Ray Rice has been more productive over the last 3 years than all of them.

    2011 receiving stats:
    Ray Rice- 76 Receptions, 704 yards, 9.3 yards per catch
    Darren Sproles- 86 receptions, 710 yards, 8.3 yards per catch
    Ryan Matthews- 50 receptions, 455 yards, 9.1 yards per catch
    CJ2K- 57 receptions, 418 yards, 7.3 yards per catch

    2010 stats:
    Ray Rice- 63 receptions, 556 yards, 8.8 yards per catch
    Darren Sproles- 59 receptions, 520 yards, 8.8 yards per catch
    Ryan Matthews- 22 receptions, 145 yards, 6.6 yards per catch
    CJ2K- 44 receptions, 245 yards, 5.6 yards per catch

    2009 stats:
    Ray Rice- 78 receptions, 702 yards, 9 yards per catch
    Darren Sproles- 45 receptions, 497 yards, 11 yards per catch
    CJ2K- 50 receptions, 503 yards, 10.1 yards per catch

    Total receiving yards:
    Rice- 1962 yards
    Sproles- 1727 yards
    CJ2K- 1166 yards
    Last edited by leachisabeast; 05-18-2012 at 10:39 AM. Reason: Added more stats




  12. #42

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Neither one of those players has proven it for the past 3 years, so to me Rice still has a big edge over any of them.
    entitled to your opinion, but i disagree. Sproles had more yards than Rice just last year as well as averaging nearly 600 yards a season the past 3 seasons. Johnson has been less consistent over that time but imo, its more to do with the inconsistency of the offense more so than an inability to be part of the passing game. Hes comparable to rice in receiving ability and elusiveness in space after the catch. Hes a 500 yard guy that happened to struggle on a team with qb problems.
    -JAB




  13. #43

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow View Post
    Wrong, wrong and more wrong but I am Riced out these days and don't feel like arguing. It would be a rather easy argument but there won't be an changing of minds around here so it is pointless.

    McCoy has never and will never be on the same level as Rice, and just got 9 million a year.

    That is why Rice is in line for 10 million a year much to the dismay of everyone in Baltimore for some crazy reason.

    Gonna have to put the board on suicide watch when early July rolls around and Rice has a deal a little more than Foster and definitely more than McCoy.
    You are wearing some purple tinted glasses or smoking something is you don't think McCoy is every bit the back Rice is.




  14. #44
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    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    entitled to your opinion, but i disagree. Sproles had more yards than Rice just last year as well as averaging nearly 600 yards a season the past 3 seasons. Johnson has been less consistent over that time but imo, its more to do with the inconsistency of the offense more so than an inability to be part of the passing game. Hes comparable to rice in receiving ability and elusiveness in space after the catch. Hes a 500 yard guy that happened to struggle on a team with qb problems.
    You are wrong, read my stats. Sure Sproles had a few more yards than Rice in 2011, but also had more receptions. Who cares about 6 more yards anyway, Rice has out produced both over the last 3 seasons.




  15. #45

    Re: Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    Don't talk to me about "CJ2K" after this past season. No way in hell are any of those backs "outright better" as a receiver. Ray Rice has been more productive over the last 3 years than all of them.

    2011 receiving stats:
    Ray Rice- 76 Receptions, 704 yards, 9.3 yards per catch
    Darren Sproles- 86 receptions, 710 yards, 8.3 yards per catch
    Ryan Matthews- 50 receptions, 455 yards, 9.1 yards per catch
    CJ2K- 57 receptions, 418 yards, 7.3 yards per catch

    2010 stats:
    Ray Rice- 63 receptions, 556 yards, 8.8 yards per catch
    Darren Sproles- 59 receptions, 520 yards, 8.8 yards per catch
    Ryan Matthews- 22 receptions, 145 yards, 6.6 yards per catch
    CJ2K- 44 receptions, 245 yards, 5.6 yards per catch

    2009 stats:
    Ray Rice- 78 receptions, 702 yards, 9 yards per catch
    Darren Sproles- 45 receptions, 497 yards, 11 yards per catch
    CJ2K- 50 receptions, 503 yards, 10.1 yards per catch

    Total receiving yards:
    Rice- 1962 yards
    Sproles- 1727 yards
    CJ2K- 1166 yards
    Stats can be misleading when trying to compare players. If you put some of those backs in the Ravens offense their receiving stats would go up significantly. Rice's stats are inflated because of how he is used in Cam's offense. Rice's stats may be better on another team. Maybe his running totals and TDs go up if he is in Houston.




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