Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

[redmike34]

The thing that im not sure how theyll work around is the fact that yeah his stats went down eventhough he arguably progressed as a player (id say he did), but how much of that do they actually factor into as their own fault? If we didnt have the green receivers and the lockout, whos to say he doesnt have even better stats. Obviously theyll use that to their advantage but how far will they let their own shortcomings hold up negotiations?

The counter-argument to this would be that the lockout was the same for all teams, and despite that it was a record-setting year for passers, but not so much for Joe.

I don't know that any QB will ever get a mega-deal out of the Ravens franchise. It comes down to scheme, as others have mentioned. The question you have to ask is, if Drew Brees and Joe Flacco traded places, what would be their relative results? Would Brees do significantly better than Flacco in the Ravens offense? I think he'd do somewhat better, but he'd not be putting up 5000 yard, 110+ rating seasons. Conversely, I don't think Flacco would do quite as well as Brees in the Saints system, but I have little doubt that his numbers would be better than they are here--better weapons, more QB-friendly scheme, etc.

Having said that, the question is not so much what is a franchise Q worth in the NFL, it's what is a franchise QB worth to the Ravens? It's hard to say that a franchise QB is worth as much to the Ravens as he would be to other teams. Baltimore doesn't have the sort of offensive weapons, IMO, that can support any QB having an over-the-moon statistical season, because they run the ball more than other teams and rely on the defense more than other teams. The Ravens' three biggest cap hits are defensive players--I wonder how many other NFL teams that is true for?

Bottom line--paying Flacco a ton of money doesn't make sense to me unless you decide to spend the sort of money, and make the scheme changes, that would make the QB position more critical to the Ravens as a football team.

[srobert96]

The counter-argument to this would be that the lockout was the same for all teams, and despite that it was a record-setting year for passers, but not so much for Joe.

I don't know that any QB will ever get a mega-deal out of the Ravens franchise. It comes down to scheme, as others have mentioned. The question you have to ask is, if Drew Brees and Joe Flacco traded places, what would be their relative results? Would Brees do significantly better than Flacco in the Ravens offense? I think he'd do somewhat better, but he'd not be putting up 5000 yard, 110+ rating seasons. Conversely, I don't think Flacco would do quite as well as Brees in the Saints system, but I have little doubt that his numbers would be better than they are here--better weapons, more QB-friendly scheme, etc.

Having said that, the question is not so much what is a franchise Q worth in the NFL, it's what is a franchise QB worth to the Ravens? It's hard to say that a franchise QB is worth as much to the Ravens as he would be to other teams. Baltimore doesn't have the sort of offensive weapons, IMO, that can support any QB having an over-the-moon statistical season, because they run the ball more than other teams and rely on the defense more than other teams. The Ravens' three biggest cap hits are defensive players--I wonder how many other NFL teams that is true for?

Bottom line--paying Flacco a ton of money doesn't make sense to me unless you decide to spend the sort of money, and make the scheme changes, that would make the QB position more critical to the Ravens as a football team.

If you look at the results a franchise QB is just as important to the Ravens as any other franchise. The Ravens have had equal or better defenses prior to Joe and equal or better running games and yet only made the playoffs every other year. Upon the arrival of Joe they have made it to the playoffs 4 years in a row. While his stats may not be great it does not mean that QB is not just as important. It is harder to play in an offense where you are typically only passing in obvious passing situations and not often enough to really get in a rhythm. That is not even taking into account scheme and lack of weapons over the years.

[Corey]

The counter-argument to this would be that the lockout was the same for all teams, and despite that it was a record-setting year for passers, but not so much for Joe.

I don't know that any QB will ever get a mega-deal out of the Ravens franchise. It comes down to scheme, as others have mentioned. The question you have to ask is, if Drew Brees and Joe Flacco traded places, what would be their relative results? Would Brees do significantly better than Flacco in the Ravens offense? I think he'd do somewhat better, but he'd not be putting up 5000 yard, 110+ rating seasons. Conversely, I don't think Flacco would do quite as well as Brees in the Saints system, but I have little doubt that his numbers would be better than they are here--better weapons, more QB-friendly scheme, etc.

Having said that, the question is not so much what is a franchise Q worth in the NFL, it's what is a franchise QB worth to the Ravens? It's hard to say that a franchise QB is worth as much to the Ravens as he would be to other teams. Baltimore doesn't have the sort of offensive weapons, IMO, that can support any QB having an over-the-moon statistical season, because they run the ball more than other teams and rely on the defense more than other teams. The Ravens' three biggest cap hits are defensive players--I wonder how many other NFL teams that is true for?

Bottom line--paying Flacco a ton of money doesn't make sense to me unless you decide to spend the sort of money, and make the scheme changes, that would make the QB position more critical to the Ravens as a football team.

The Ravens don't really have a choice but to pay Flacco. It's not a matter of "if" but "when" with Flacco's contract. The Ravens were around for more than a decade when he was drafted and he's already by far the best QB the team has ever had and its not even close. They won't let him get away.

But I do agree that the Ravens have every incentive to see him succeed once they invest that large amount of money in him. The Ravens are going to slowly transition away from being a defensive minded team. I expect to see alot more resources poured into finding Flacco weapons and if Flacco does not start to flourish under Cameron, Cameron will soon find himself out of a job. Anytime you pay a guy as much as the Ravens are going to have to pay Flacco the team has be built to get the best out of him.

I am honestly not really sure why Flacco's contract is relevant to the Ray Rice discussion. The Ravens don't have a choice to make there. Rice is not competing with Flacco for money because Flacco will be here regardless. Rice is competing with guys like Michael Oher, Dickson/ Pitta, Cody, Paul Krugar, Ed Reed..... And others who have upcoming contracts.When the Ravens do Rice's contract they have to weigh how many of those guys they are willing to lose.

[redmike34]

If you look at the results a franchise QB is just as important to the Ravens as any other franchise. The Ravens have had equal or better defenses prior to Joe and equal or better running games and yet only made the playoffs every other year. Upon the arrival of Joe they have made it to the playoffs 4 years in a row. While his stats may not be great it does not mean that QB is not just as important. It is harder to play in an offense where you are typically only passing in obvious passing situations and not often enough to really get in a rhythm. That is not even taking into account scheme and lack of weapons over the years.

Sure... but as long as you're spending money on the defensive side of the ball like the Ravens do, what that amounts to is having a franchise QB in order to not screw it up for you, vice having a franchise QB who (consistently) wins games for you.

Don't get me wrong--I like Joe, and there have definitely been games that he's the main reason the Ravens won. But it's all cap gymnastics. 25% of the Ravens cap money is tied up in three players who are never on the field at the same time Flacco is. If you're not going to spend the money to bring in the sort of weapons which you can reasonably expect a QB to be a consistent game-winner because of... then how much is any QB worth?

I've said my piece on this before, so I won't go into the sordid details of the argument in detail again... but if your team can win 12 games with an average QB rating of 80 for the season (a far lower number than any other team had that got 12+ wins), it tells me that while better offensive production would certainly help your team, it isn't the main reason you're winning games.

[Haloti92]

The Ravens don't really have a choice but to pay Flacco.

Of course the Ravens have a choice. The idea Joe is going to be handed a blank check is ridiculous, imo. I agree circumstances dictate we will likely be willing to overpay him, but that is a relative notion. If Flacco and his agent get crazy with their demands, we would be wise to take our chances, imo, and let him test the market.

And the fact that the Ravens had dismal QBs for a decade and Joe is significantly better than dismal, isn't the same thing as "we can't survive without him, so we should pay him whatever he wants."

We drafted 2 QBs in the first round over that time. We went 1 for 2. Other than Boller and Flacco we have drafted 1 QB before the 5th round, and that was Redman in 2000 in the 3rd. The reason our QB situation was spotty is because we didn't really try very hard to find a great QB. Boller was the only real attempt, and it failed and we may have taken a year too long to realize it, but that is it. We always figured we didn't need a great QB to win, so we didn't try to get one, so we didn't get one. An over-the-hill (and halfway down the other side) McNair led us to a 13-3 season before imploding. Boller was rubbish and he got us a home playoff game. Grbac was semi-rubbish and he won us a playoff game. Dilfer was rubbish and he won the SB.

Of course I want Flacco to be here for the longterm. But I want it at a price that isn't insane, as well.

[ballhawk]

There is 0% chance that Flacco hits the open market.

[JustaslowZ06]

. Rice is competing with guys like Michael Oher, Dickson/ Pitta, Cody, Paul Krugar, Ed Reed..... And others who have upcoming contracts.When the Ravens do Rice's contract they have to weigh how many of those guys they are willing to lose.

I'd tak Rice over all of them for 500 Alex. And yes that inludes Reed, after this year anyway lol. The rest you named are easily replaced, Pitta is about the only one of those actually that I even want to see resigned anyway. Well maybe Cody but it's not like he isn't easily replaceable either.

[Haloti92]

There is 0% chance that Flacco hits the open market.

And what guarantees that? That there is a 0% chance Flacco will make unreasonable demands? Or there is a 0% chance the Ravens would reject unreasonable demands?

[ballhawk]

And what guarantees that? That there is a 0% chance Flacco will make unreasonable demands? Or there is a 0% chance the Ravens would reject unreasonable demands?

Flacco is entering the final year of his rookie deal...which means for all intents and purposes, the Ravens will hold his rights for the next three years. They have already started negotiations. In the highly unlikely, nearly impossible scenerio that they cant come to terms on anthe extension by 2014, they will trade him. Franchise QB's dont hit the open market. I wouldnt be suprised if he is extended before the start of the season.

[arnie_uk]

drew brees has already been in flaccos place, with a better running back and didn't fare much better. So has rivers

The counter-argument to this would be that the lockout was the same for all teams, and despite that it was a record-setting year for passers, but not so much for Joe.

I don't know that any QB will ever get a mega-deal out of the Ravens franchise. It comes down to scheme, as others have mentioned. The question you have to ask is, if Drew Brees and Joe Flacco traded places, what would be their relative results? Would Brees do significantly better than Flacco in the Ravens offense? I think he'd do somewhat better, but he'd not be putting up 5000 yard, 110+ rating seasons. Conversely, I don't think Flacco would do quite as well as Brees in the Saints system, but I have little doubt that his numbers would be better than they are here--better weapons, more QB-friendly scheme, etc.

Having said that, the question is not so much what is a franchise Q worth in the NFL, it's what is a franchise QB worth to the Ravens? It's hard to say that a franchise QB is worth as much to the Ravens as he would be to other teams. Baltimore doesn't have the sort of offensive weapons, IMO, that can support any QB having an over-the-moon statistical season, because they run the ball more than other teams and rely on the defense more than other teams. The Ravens' three biggest cap hits are defensive players--I wonder how many other NFL teams that is true for?

Bottom line--paying Flacco a ton of money doesn't make sense to me unless you decide to spend the sort of money, and make the scheme changes, that would make the QB position more critical to the Ravens as a football team.

[wickedsolo]

And what guarantees that? That there is a 0% chance Flacco will make unreasonable demands? Or there is a 0% chance the Ravens would reject unreasonable demands?

They would give him the franchise tag before giving it to anyone else.

Flacco won't hit the market. It just won't happen.

[Corey]

Of course the Ravens have a choice. The idea Joe is going to be handed a blank check is ridiculous, imo. I agree circumstances dictate we will likely be willing to overpay him, but that is a relative notion. If Flacco and his agent get crazy with their demands, we would be wise to take our chances, imo, and let him test the market.

And the fact that the Ravens had dismal QBs for a decade and Joe is significantly better than dismal, isn't the same thing as "we can't survive without him, so we should pay him whatever he wants."

We drafted 2 QBs in the first round over that time. We went 1 for 2. Other than Boller and Flacco we have drafted 1 QB before the 5th round, and that was Redman in 2000 in the 3rd. The reason our QB situation was spotty is because we didn't really try very hard to find a great QB. Boller was the only real attempt, and it failed and we may have taken a year too long to realize it, but that is it. We always figured we didn't need a great QB to win, so we didn't try to get one, so we didn't get one. An over-the-hill (and halfway down the other side) McNair led us to a 13-3 season before imploding. Boller was rubbish and he got us a home playoff game. Grbac was semi-rubbish and he won us a playoff game. Dilfer was rubbish and he won the SB.

Of course I want Flacco to be here for the longterm. But I want it at a price that isn't insane, as well.

I think your being naive if you think Flacco is going to get less than a top flight contract. The trend around the NFL is to pay ascending QB's top dollar. I don't expect to see him pulling almost 20 million a year like Manning did at one point but Flacco is definitely going to get in the low to mid- teens.

I don't see any scenario what so ever that the Ravens allow Flacco unrestricted access to free agency. I think you'd be surprised how much more they'd have to pay to keep him if that happened. Arizona and KC gave unproven QB's like Kolb and Cassell 70 million dollar deals. A proven winner like Flacco could easily pull more than 100 million from a desperate team.