Philly extend up LeSean McCoy

[The Excellector]

Ray Rice has had just as many impressive playoffs games as Flacco. If Rice has slipped in the playoffs, due to the offensive line, Flacco has, due to the WRs and the offensive line and you can see it for yourself.

[Corey]

Can I ask if you got that from Hensley? If so I wouldn't pay much mind to it. He was writing what HE thinks and stating his opinion, there are no real evident sources to that information. (Unless you read it from somewhere else.) I think he said something along the lines of "Rice may want more like the money Chris Johnson and Adrian Peterson got".

31 million guaranteed is just too much for a back, I am very pro Rice, but no way in hell do I think the Ravens should do that.

If it came from Hensley than ESPN is once again contradicting itself. The 10 million per year comment that I made yesterday came from, I believe, Adam Schefter.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...vens-ray-rice/

[Dirt1]

If it came from Hensley than ESPN is once again contradicting itself. The 10 million per year comment that I made yesterday came from, I believe, Adam Schefter.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...vens-ray-rice/

So, Rice wants $10 million per year, so 5 yrs $50 million with $21 million guaranteed, or an additional $10 million guaranteed? That would be a contract of 5 years, $50 million with $31 million guaranteed?

[GOTA]

Ray Rice has had just as many impressive playoffs games as Flacco. If Rice has slipped in the playoffs, due to the offensive line, Flacco has, due to the WRs and the offensive line and you can see it for yourself.

It doesn't matter. A great running back just isn't worth as much as an average quarterback. That's what the NFL wanted and they changed the rules to make sure it's what happened. Too bad for Rice he didn't hit free agency 2 years ago.

[The Excellector]

It doesn't matter. A great running back just isn't worth as much as an average quarterback. That's what the NFL wanted and they changed the rules to make sure it's what happened. Too bad for Rice he didn't hit free agency 2 years ago.

I just don't understand how, whenever Rice slips, even though the offense is focused around him, Rice is more likely to get a pass. However, when Flacco slips, in an offense non-conducive to developing QBs, he hasn't shown that he can handle more. He's shown that he can make the throws. The front office has spoken. They'd rather win 15-12 than 42-38, and they've made that clear, both verbally and through the moves they've made.

To their credit, they've tried to get some better WRs. However, the first time he makes a mistake, they take the ball from him. If he doesn't throw the pass darn near perfectly, it rarely gets caught. They don't let him really sling it until they have no other choice and they still don't really give him significant input in the on-field management of the offense, even though that has somewhat improved.

[pslholder96]

If it came from Hensley than ESPN is once again contradicting itself. The 10 million per year comment that I made yesterday came from, I believe, Adam Schefter.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...vens-ray-rice/

Adam Schefter said nothing like that, only that no progress was made. The $10 million quote came from some Chicago sports beat writer when he was looking at contracts signed by running backs thus far.

[ballhawk]

Hensley said today that Rice wants $30mil guaranteed and that the ravens are offering $20mil guaranteed. The $10mil that is getting thrown around is the difference between the two sides. If true, this is probably Rice's last year in bmore (maybe 2013). I think its just baseless speculation though, and a fancy way of saying that rice wants AP/CJ money while the ravens are offering foster/mccoy money.

[pslholder96]

Hensley said today that Rice wants $30mil guaranteed and that the ravens are offering $20mil guaranteed. The $10mil that is getting thrown around is the difference between the two sides. If true, this is probably Rice's last year in bmore (maybe 2013). I think its just baseless speculation though, and a fancy way of saying that rice wants AP/CJ money while the ravens are offering foster/mccoy money.

When did he say that? Is the blog below the one you're referring to you because if it is Hensley is purely speculating.


The Ravens and running back Ray Rice continue to talk, which is a positive sign. But the sides have not made any progress toward a new deal, a source familiar with the talks told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.


Rice
The deadline for Rice and the Ravens to strike a new deal is 56 days away. If he doesn't sign a contract by July 16, he will play under the $7.7 million franchise tag.

The fact that there's been a lack of progress shows the struggle to find a middle ground. Rice probably believes he deserves a contract closer to the one given to the Titans' Chris Johnson (six years with $30 million guaranteed). In fact, Rice has had more total yards over the past three years than Johnson.

But the Ravens are likely trying to get the money closer to the deals recently signed by Arian Foster (five years, $43.5 million with $20.75 million guaranteed) and LeSean McCoy (five-year, $45 million with $20.76 million guaranteed). Baltimore can argue that is now the market value for running backs.

Until the sides can bridge a $10 million difference in the guaranteed money, there will be no progress made toward a new deal.

[arnie_uk]

if we cant talk about speculation what can we talk about, i think its safe to say that people who say its not worth paying ray that is based on the fact if it WERE true... We have no way of knowing if it is or isnt, but we're still within our rights to give our opinion on it, and if it turns out to be false so be it....

When did he say that? Is the blog below the one you're referring to you because if it is Hensley is purely speculating.


The Ravens and running back Ray Rice continue to talk, which is a positive sign. But the sides have not made any progress toward a new deal, a source familiar with the talks told ESPN NFL Insider Adam Schefter.


Rice
The deadline for Rice and the Ravens to strike a new deal is 56 days away. If he doesn't sign a contract by July 16, he will play under the $7.7 million franchise tag.

The fact that there's been a lack of progress shows the struggle to find a middle ground. Rice probably believes he deserves a contract closer to the one given to the Titans' Chris Johnson (six years with $30 million guaranteed). In fact, Rice has had more total yards over the past three years than Johnson.

But the Ravens are likely trying to get the money closer to the deals recently signed by Arian Foster (five years, $43.5 million with $20.75 million guaranteed) and LeSean McCoy (five-year, $45 million with $20.76 million guaranteed). Baltimore can argue that is now the market value for running backs.

Until the sides can bridge a $10 million difference in the guaranteed money, there will be no progress made toward a new deal.

[pslholder96]

if we cant talk about speculation what can we talk about, i think its safe to say that people who say its not worth paying ray that is based on the fact if it WERE true... We have no way of knowing if it is or isnt, but we're still within our rights to give our opinion on it, and if it turns out to be false so be it....

I agree. As much as I love Ray Rice he's not worth that kind of money however I wanted to make it clear that Hensley is not reporting it as something he heard from his sources so having said that there's nothing wrong with debating speculation:)

[Haloti92]

I didn't say Rice has a better offensive situation, I said he is playing in a more RB friendly scheme.

And I disagree for the reasons I stated.

By that I meant the Ravens are built around a power running game with an old-school lead-blocker. In our offense the RB will be rushing the ball and catching the ball an absurd amount of times in a scheme designed for him to flourish.

Except McCoy only had 18 less attempts than Rice and played a full game less. Per game rushing attempts were: Rice 18.1875, and McCoy 18.2. If Rice's rushing attempts are "absurd" in number, than so were McCoy's last year. As for receptions I already addressed why those are higher, and the big reason is the checkdown vs the scramble. The Eagles run more screens than we do, and I suspect (because they have a better, more varied passing game) they have more designed routes to the RB (circle routes, etc). My only point is that Rice is used as an emergency back more than McCoy; you can argue as to why, but I would argue that Rice bails out more bad (passing) plays for our team than McCoy does for theirs.

The Eagles in their WCO are not going to scheme as much to feature their RB. Your points are valid, but you are answering a question I did not ask, so to speak.

I disagree, and the total number of rushes backs me up. The receptions are tougher to gauge, but Rice is more valuable in that respect.

(You're also just plain crazy if you think the Eagles had a better OL than we did last year, particularly interior OL. The Eagles had one of the league's worst interior OL while we had a top-3 unit there when Grubbs was healthy.)

Huh? Not sure why you are so confident in this proclamation, check the rankings:

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...-lines-part-2/

Let's also establish the fact that O-line is but a small part of the equation; a predictable offense is much more of a factor than the intrinsic quality of your O-line. As is the quality/threat of your passing attack, in terms of how often the opposition can risk putting an extra guy in the box (vs us that is a lot of the time).

You are right that the Eagles are a more multiple offense than we are, but a lot of your other points are not supported by the facts. Regarding how many 8-9 man fronts Rice is facing vs. McCoy, that's difficult to know without charting each game carefully.

Yeah, it is difficult to know, but the stronger your passing attack the riskier it is for the opposition to ignore the pass in favor of the run.

But in games when the Eagles went very run-heavy, which will usually cause teams to run a lot of stacked boxes, McCoy was still very effective. He averaged 4.6 YPC on carries 21 and over in 2011 while Rice averaged 4.25 on carries 21 and over, so even deep into a run-heavy game both backs were good, McCoy was better.

Run heavy doesn't indicate stacked boxes. Run heavy indicates success on the ground, and specifically vs success of your passing game. If your coach thinks your best chance is to run the ball even if you are getting 3.5 yards a carry, that is an indictment on your passing game. And it occurred more with us than with Philly, who would stop running (low attempts) when the run wasn't doing well. Like vs SF where McCoy ran it 9 times (for 18), and Rice ran it 21 for 59. In both cases SF was stuffing the run, in our game it was low scoring and our pass O sucked also, so we kept running it. A better passing game and/or a higher scoring game and we abandon the run, rely less on Rice and don't force him to slam it into a brutal run defense. Run heavy can also indicate games where you are ahead and just killing clock late in the game. This would be times where there were stacked boxes, but they are also times where the other team may have given up; hard to say how that situation effects the YPC. I would say the closer the game (smaller the lead) and the better the run defense (or the team you are beating), the harder it is to run in clock-killing sitting-on-lead situations.

Finally, regarding the quality of run defense in the respective divisions, the AFC North is ahead, but not by much. The Browns, Bengals, and Steelers average 13th in run defense by YPC allowed; the Giants, Redskins, and Cowboys were 17th.

But it doesn't need to be much to explain a .1 per carry difference, which is all we are talking about. Pitt, Cincy, Cleveland's run defense averaged 4.1465 per carry allowed. Washington, Dallas, Giants run defense averaged 4.2998 per carry allowed. Or a difference of .1533 per carry, more than what we are quibbling about in terms of Rice vs McCoy. That said, just from a glance (too lazy to calculate exactly vs eyeballing it), it looks like the other 5 uncommon opponents eats into that difference, leaving approximately .11 per carry difference for the 11 total uncommon opponents.

And regarding Vick running, he actually ran by far the least he's ever run in his career this past year. He only had 76 attempts in 13 games--he had 100 in 11 in 2010 while still finding the time to throw McCoy 78 passes. So, that part of your argument doesn't seem to hold up. I also think you're overestimating the impact of the Eagles' passing game. Maybe in 2010 Vick was incredible, but he was distinctly average last year.

2010 stats do not change the general premise that Rice gets many more checkdown receptions on busted passing plays than McCoy does, due to the fact Vick runs a ton more than Flacco. As for the specific differences in McCoy's receptions and Vicks carries from 2010 to 2011 they can be explained by other factors. For starters, the Eagles ran the ball more this year (designed runs) than last year. Total runs from all running backs in 2010: 285. Total runs from running backs in 2011: 342. Less dropbacks equals less checkdowns and scrambles. As for McCoy's receptions, he got 27 receptions in 2010 in games where Kolb played the entire or majority of the game (similar to Joe checking down I assume). That makes up some of the drop from 2010 to 2011 in McCoy receptions; the decreased dropbacks (more straight runs) can explain a lot of the rest. And as you imply, so can better WR options for Vick, etc, but this also doesn't undermine my point (which is only that Rice gets receptions in our offense a lot of times because he is the receiver of last resort).

[GOTA]

I just don't understand how, whenever Rice slips, even though the offense is focused around him, Rice is more likely to get a pass. However, when Flacco slips, in an offense non-conducive to developing QBs, he hasn't shown that he can handle more. He's shown that he can make the throws. The front office has spoken. They'd rather win 15-12 than 42-38, and they've made that clear, both verbally and through the moves they've made.

To their credit, they've tried to get some better WRs. However, the first time he makes a mistake, they take the ball from him. If he doesn't throw the pass darn near perfectly, it rarely gets caught. They don't let him really sling it until they have no other choice and they still don't really give him significant input in the on-field management of the offense, even though that has somewhat improved.

When we're talking money and cap space you can throw a lot of that stuff out the window. I don't disagree with you in terms of on the field performance. From what I've seen though that doesn't always equate to a team's willingness to devote a certain amount of cap space to that player or position.

Quarterbacks, Cornerbacks and pass rushers get paid in this league. Recently you've see big money thrown at Guards. Running backs, linebackers, tight ends and centers aren't getting the huge money no matter how good they are.

Throw out the system and what the player can do in it. Instead just focus on what the player would be worth as a free agent. Just based on what Matt Flynn got it's easy to project Joe Flacco getting a huge contract. Based on what other top running backs got this year it's easy to project Ray Rice getting something similar to what they got.