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  1. #31

    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray



    Quote Originally Posted by callahan09 View Post
    Another bit of research I've done...

    Tommy Streeter is a tall, fast receiver who played in the ACC. Here are his measurables:

    Draft Season, Name, Height, Weight, 40/Low/High, Vertical, Broad
    2012, Tommy Streeter, 6-5, 219, 4.40/4.30/4.54, 33, 10-05

    Since 2000, only 10 other receivers have been drafted in the 6th round or later who were at least 6'4". Only 2 of them were at least 6'5". Here are the measurables for those 10 players:

    2011, David Ausberry, 6-4, 243, 4.52/4.47/4.59, -, -
    2009, Marko Mitchell, 6-4, 218, 4.43/4.36/4.54, 32, 9-08
    2008, Marcus Henry, 6-4, 212, 4.55/4.46/4.64, 31.5, 10-06
    2008, Chaz Schilens, 6-4, 208, 4.38/4.36/4.48, -, -
    2008, Mario Urrutia, 6-6, 232, 4.59/4.52/4.67, 30, 9-07
    2008, Marcus Monk, 6-4, 222, 4.56/4.50/4.64, 34.5, 9-11
    2007, Jordan Kent, 6-4, 217, 4.49/4.42/4.55, -, -
    2006, Marques Colston 6-4, 225, 4.50/-/-, 37, 10-03
    2004, Clarence Moore, 6-6, 220, 4.55/-/-, 34, 10-02
    2003, Walter Young, 6-4, 214, 4.54/-/-, 39, 10-01

    The two players who could compete with Streeter on size alone, Clarence Moore and Mario Urrutia, were both significantly slower. Streeter's low 40-time was more than 2 whole tenths of a second faster than Urrutia's fastest, and his jumping ability is much better as well.

    All but 2 of these players are significantly worse than Streeter in the speed department.

    Marko Mitchell is only slightly slower and shorter than Streeter, but he played college ball in the Mountain West conference, which since 2001 has only produced 11 drafted wide receivers, only 1 of whom (Steve Smith) has ever actually produced significantly in the NFL, so it's not exactly a conference you expect players to come out of with NFL skills.

    The other is Chaz Schilens, who ironically enough also played in the Mountain West, and he's having the best career so far of any receiver to come from that conference since Steve Smith.

    Streeter, on the other hand, played in the ACC, which has produced 27 drafted receivers since 2001, including Anquan Boldin, Jerricho Cotchery, and Calvin Johnson. 11 of the 27 had at least 100 catches and 1000 yards. That's a 41% rate, versus the 1 out of 11 in the Mountain West (9%).

    So what I'm saying is, a player like Streeter, who has 6'5" size and 4.40 speed, is extremely rare to be drafted in the 6th round or later. It has literally never happened. You have to look at 6'4" players to find some history of that kind of speed ever being drafted this late. And as you can see from my list above, even that is extremely rare. But to have that size and that speed, AND to be a player who played in a conference with a history of feeding the NFL with a high quantity and percentage of very productive players, is truly unprecedented.

    So while you may point out the low success rate of late-drafted receivers, I would point out that receivers of Streeter's caliber have simply never been drafted this low before.
    Once again you seem to think that a receivers skill level/draft position value directly relates to size and speed. It doesn't. That is just ONE area a receiver is graded in out of about five.

    I get that no player has EVER had the measurables that Streeter had in the 6th round (and I don't know that to be true, I would love to go back over my list one day and see but I will take your word for it). Good for him. That begs the question if that was the case why in the world did he not go earlier??

    It also has nothing to do with conference played in, or how many receivers have been produced from said conference (especially trying to include guys like Calvin Johnson and other top picks in the data with 6th and 7th rounders). It has to do with talent. Talent is what gets production, talent is what gets you drafted whether you are 5'10 running a 4.5 or 6'5 running a 4.4.

    You have to isolate by round, not by anything else. You are just mixing and matching to try to find a reason that Streeter will be different by including high round picks and all types of other non starters such as what conference he played in. That means nothing.

    His talent level coming out was of the 6th round value, as decided by 32 NFL GM's. These guys have a track record of identifying who has the most liklihood to make it and the risk level they attach to a certain player which translates into a draft grade. (There is a sliding scale of success rates from the 1st round right through the 7th) If he was this once in a generation 6th rounder.....he wouldn't have gone in the 6th round he would have gone higher.

    The numbers are what they are.
    Last edited by TheJoeFlaccoShow; 05-15-2012 at 02:22 PM.




  2. #32

    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    as much as i liked Hill, even I didnt think Streeter was that far behind him. Really it was just a gut feeling that i had about Hill, but to get him in the 6th is just ridiculous. im still amazed he fell that far, especially when you consider some teams are just taking chances on project WRs in rounds before that, why not the 6'5 39" vertical with 4.4 speed? His hands are huge so really its just a matter of getting him to focus on the catch, which im hoping our WR coach can do (probably a bit optimistic considering our WR coach).
    Nail, meet hammer. Exactly my thought. If there was ever a time to take a chance on a guy, This is the perfect guy. His ceiling is probably higher than Hill's becuase he's really only gotten the opportunity to be a starting receiver one year in college.

    I still think it will take a lot of coaching, and some more mental toughness on his end to really get him to play well, but man if you want a project player this is the perfect kind of guy you want. A guy with all the physical tools in the world, who hasn't' scratched the surface of how good he can be, to get him in the 6th adds more to the Legend of Oz.
    Lardarius "The predator" Webb





  3. #33
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    I realize there is more to it than speed/size, id be one of the first to tell you as such, but a raw prospect that isnt so good at such things, can rely on those physical abilities until they do, or dont, learn the finer parts of the position. in other words giving them more of a chance. i disagree with you on the rarity of 6'4+ with 4.3 speed. There isnt many of those guys and they arent usually available late in the draft, even raw ones. Brandon Marshall, TO, even DHB all were extremely raw guys that had that height and speed but all went 3rd round or higher despite it. thats also not taking into account the ones that are drafted early and dont succeed either, which maybe streeter, hill, & quick will or would have fallen under, but my point that they arent typically available late in the draft i believe remains.



    thats what im trying to say, although i would define it as "physical ability" rather than "caliber of WR".. he is raw as a WR, even if he does have the tools to be good.

    Believe your list is missing some though, including our own Justin Harper... 6'4 and ran a 4.58 40.
    I used the NFL.com full draft history page to compile my list. They list Justin Harper at 6'3".

    http://www.nfl.com/player/justinharper/760/profile

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...&type=position




  4. #34
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow View Post
    Once again you seem to think that a receivers skill level/draft position value directly relates to size and speed. It doesn't. That is just ONE area a receiver is graded in out of about five.

    I get that no player has EVER had the measurables that Streeter had in the 6th round (and I don't know that to be true, I would love to go back over my list one day and see but I will take your word for it). Good for him. That begs the question if that was the case why in the world did he not go earlier??

    It also has nothing to do with conference played in, or how many receivers have been produced from said conference (especially trying to include guys like Calvin Johnson and other top picks in the data with 6th and 7th rounders). It has to do with talent. Talent is what gets production, talent is what gets you drafted whether you are 5'10 running a 4.5 or 6'5 running a 4.4.

    You have to isolate by round, not by anything else. You are just mixing and matching to try to find a reason that Streeter will be different by including high round picks and all types of other non starters such as what conference he played in. That means nothing.

    His talent level coming out was of the 6th round value, as decided by 32 NFL GM's. These guys have a track record of identifying who has the most liklihood to make it and the risk level they attach to a certain player which translates into a draft grade. (There is a sliding scale of success rates from the 1st round right through the 7th) If he was this once in a generation 6th rounder.....he wouldn't have gone in the 6th round he would have gone higher.

    The numbers are what they are.
    I understand what you're saying, I'm just trying to say that while it's true that 6th and 7th rounders rarely have success, it's also rare for a 6th or 7th rounder to have the measurables that Streeter has. And conference does have a little something to do with it, because if you play ball in a more competitive conference than you're more likely to have some skills that already translate better to the NFL versus someone from a weak conference. All I'm trying to say is that you can give me 180 or however many it was players who fit a broad criteria, and tell me something about the common case among them, and then I can pare down that list to 10 players who actually have something in common with Streeter besides just his draft selection number, and tell you why it makes more sense to compare him against those guys than the overall number of players which includes mostly guys in the 6'0" range and smaller. Streeter is taller, faster, and has experience playing in a more competitive conference than pretty much every 6th or 7th round pick from the past. So I think it's not a complete leap of faith to believe he'll turn out better than an average 6th/7th rounder.




  5. #35

    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by callahan09 View Post
    I used the NFL.com full draft history page to compile my list. They list Justin Harper at 6'3".

    http://www.nfl.com/player/justinharper/760/profile

    http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/ful...&type=position
    fair enough, seems it depends on how they round up as i think his actual measurement was 6'3-1/2".
    -JAB




  6. #36
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    I understand everything being said here. And I can see all sides.
    But, I think Streeter is in one of the best possible situations coming here.

    First thing that dropped him down the boards is that he needs work.
    He is a junior that could have used the final year to season, etc.
    Ok, that's fine, he's raw.

    But coming here with the physical makeup he has, add in Joe being able to throw a nice deep ball, add in Torrey Smith taking the number 1 opposing corner away, adding in Boldin in the slot, taking the second best corner, Streeter could come in by game one and run deep routes stretching the field.
    IF he has any kind of hands, it doesn't matter how old he is, how much playing time he got in college, what round he was drafted in, none of that matters if he can catch Joe's long throws. Then opposing defenses will have to account for him. In the meantime, we will have Jacoby Jones and Doss here, too.

    The possibility of a passing offense that FORCES opposing defenses to defend every inch of the field might very well be under contract, here in Baltimore.

    Everything to help Streeter succeed here, is here, and Ray helping him is something no one should underestimate.
    He is helping him with conditioning and mental toughness which could translate into confidence and production.
    Not holding my breath, just a low key excitement right now thinking about the possible tremendous upside.




  7. #37
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    It's funny that Antonio Brown was mentioned, because he has similar issues with his route running. There were reports that, although Ben really liked him, he would get frustrated with Brown's poor route running at times. I could actually see that manifest itself on the field. It does take time. That is why I am not quick to think that Antonio Brown could suddenly survive as a legitimate threat in Pittsburgh's offense, without Mike Wallace.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  8. #38
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    As for Streeter, he will be judged on whether or not he can catch the ball.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #39
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens44 View Post
    Everything to help Streeter succeed here, is here, and Ray helping him is something no one should underestimate.
    He is helping him with conditioning and mental toughness which could translate into confidence and production.
    Not holding my breath, just a low key excitement right now thinking about the possible tremendous upside.
    This is what I was referring to as the OP. No, Ray isn't a WR coach and isn't trying to
    be. I stressed at the top Ray is emphasing training and pushing your body to the
    limit. That has nothing to do with WR techniques and pass routes etc.

    As the quotes above say, everything else here is in place for Streeter to succeed
    and Ray's training can only help him and he is taking advantage of it.

    Great posts everyone. I also liked that ACC post with all the stats of their
    players going into the ACC.

    If you click on the Terps vid of their new facilities they have a room to impress
    recruits. It has jerseys hanging of all former Terps that made the pros like
    Merriman, Vernon Davis, Antonio Gates, Torrey Smith, Laquan Williams (both
    of Ravens), Scott, Madieu and Lamont Jordan, Jermaine Lewis of Ravens
    SB 35 with a TD return, EJ Henderson (also of Cal'sAberdeen Hi) and even Gaither-lol.

    Here's a link that says 6 former Terps were in the playoffs, at least one in each
    round. That's pretty impressive from 1 school.


    http://www.umterps.com/sports/m-foot...011312aab.html
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 05-15-2012 at 05:08 PM.




  10. #40

    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow View Post
    I think we need to temper the enthusiasm a little bit on Streeter. I get all the steal, great value, how did this guy go in the the 6th round stuff but he was drafted there for a reason.

    Here is one of them...

    http://ravens24x7.com/columns/Camp-N...okie-mini-camp


    I just completed some research and from 1995-2009 68% of receivers drafted in the 6th round never caught more than 10 passes in their entire NFL career, and the bust rate was 86% overall. The guys that did make it never amounted to anything more than a number 3 receiver except for one guy (Pierre Garcon, out of 75 total).

    If Streeter can make the team and stick around it will be an accomplishment, everything else will be a bonus.
    Marques Colston was a 7th round draft pick and is the same size as streeter.

    Antonio Brown was drafted in the 6th round.




  11. #41

    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    Marques Colston was a 7th round draft pick and is the same size as streeter.

    Antonio Brown was drafted in the 6th round.
    Get back to me when you make it past the first post I made in this thread with all the detailed numbers posted and the reasoning for my thought process.




  12. #42
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Good stuff from JFS and Callahan. Interesting numbers.

    Streeter has the the size/speed combo that could translate to something special for the Ravens, however he has a long way to go. Frankly, I don't think he'll ever really be a complete receiver and at best will end up like a David Nelson/Justin Gage type of receiver in a couple of years. What I'd like to see from him (and I think his best bet to produce as a pro) is to get really good at making plays down field. With his height, arm length, and vertical speed he should be able to create mismatches down the field.
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  13. #43

    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by TheJoeFlaccoShow View Post
    Antonio Brown was drafted in 2010 (I only went to 2009, tough to judge a guy after 2 years especially late rounders), but yes he was a 6th rounder. That would be 2 guys in a 16 year span. Two. Out of close to 100.
    For the sake of fairness, you need to look at guys drafted in the 6th or later for this conversation. Also, I never understood the point of this sort of history because past success of the league as a whole has nothing to do with an individual player.




  14. #44

    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    He matches what we do here very well. cant underestimate that. Good player can go to a bad fit or bad situation (QB/coach) and be bad. Hes coming to a good team with a good QB and an OC, whether good or bad, that matches his initial skill set almost perfectly. You look at him and Hill who basically identical in physical ability as well as experience. Id assume Streeter has a better chance simply because hes in a system that fits him and doesnt have mark sanchez or tim tebow throwing him the ball, regardless if he was drafted 4 rounds later. Where you end up is just as much of a factor in all this as well.
    -JAB




  15. #45
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    Re: Streeter working out with and learning from Ray

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    He matches what we do here very well. cant underestimate that. Good player can go to a bad fit or bad situation (QB/coach) and be bad. Hes coming to a good team with a good QB and an OC, whether good or bad, that matches his initial skill set almost perfectly. You look at him and Hill who basically identical in physical ability as well as experience. Id assume Streeter has a better chance simply because hes in a system that fits him and doesnt have mark sanchez or tim tebow throwing him the ball, regardless if he was drafted 4 rounds later. Where you end up is just as much of a factor in all this as well.
    Excellent points.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




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