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  1. #46

    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I didn't say he wasn't a good QB...I'm just saying I think he's overrated. He's a choke artist and granted, like I think Houston Raven pointed out, the Cowboys defense and OL didn't exactly do him any favors, but when the pressure is on it seems like he crumbles.

    Regarding his receivers, who gives shit if Miles Austin WAS an undrafted free agent? He's one of the better receivers in the league and he's better than any receiver the Ravens currently have and have had while Flacco has been here. Dez may have been a rookie, but show me a better receiver on the Ravens roster? There are none. Same with Witten. Jason Witten is arguably the best all-around TE in the NFL. Explaining Laurent Robinson is easy - he was healthy all of last year and wasn't the #1 guy defenses accounted for. I'm not 100% positive, but I don't think Robinson has played a healthy year ever as a pro prior to last year with the Cowboys.

    Marques Colston was a 7th rounder, Victor Cruz was undrafted, Wes Welker was undrafted. That doesn't mean anything at all and I don't know many who'd argue that those guys are not better than any receiver the Ravens currently have.

    My point was that if you give Joe weapons like the Cowboys have given Romo or the Giants have given Eli and continue to develop and foster those weapons then it could lead to some great things.

    I'm not saying that Tony Romo isn't a good QB. He's better than half of the league's starters, no doubt, but at the end of the day it's about W's and L's and how a guy performs when the pressure is on. Last year, Flacco responded when the pressure was on. Romo didn't.
    The point is you and others use circular logic in an effort to make your points. You define "good receivers" as guys who put up stats, you then use "good receivers" to argue the QB has it easier. But of course the QB can be and is responsible for the "good stats" in the first place. Likewise, you use "bad stats" to argue that the receiver isn't great, of course in the case of Robinson, you claim he was a good receiver all along despite the bad stats because the contrary doesn't fit the narrative. A similar argument of convenience is used to explain Boldin's dropoff.

    At the end of the day the W's and L's argument when describing individuals is stupid, for all the reasons given multiple times on this forum and elsewhere. Romo has choked a few times but that moniker, much like P. Manning's is overdone; many times people ignore the fact Romo gave the team the lead in the first place with his 90-100 QB rating, before the rare "choke". We have no idea what happens if Romo and Flacco switched places, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that if the Ravens defense and the Cowboys defense switched places, we don't win against Houston in the playoffs, nor do we win about 4-5 other games last year; and likewise Dallas wins a handful more games easily.




  2. #47

    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The point is you and others use circular logic in an effort to make your points. You define "good receivers" as guys who put up stats, you then use "good receivers" to argue the QB has it easier. But of course the QB can be and is responsible for the "good stats" in the first place. Likewise, you use "bad stats" to argue that the receiver isn't great, of course in the case of Robinson, you claim he was a good receiver all along despite the bad stats because the contrary doesn't fit the narrative. A similar argument of convenience is used to explain Boldin's dropoff.

    At the end of the day the W's and L's argument when describing individuals is stupid, for all the reasons given multiple times on this forum and elsewhere. Romo has choked a few times but that moniker, much like P. Manning's is overdone; many times people ignore the fact Romo gave the team the lead in the first place with his 90-100 QB rating, before the rare "choke". We have no idea what happens if Romo and Flacco switched places, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that if the Ravens defense and the Cowboys defense switched places, we don't win against Houston in the playoffs, nor do we win about 4-5 other games last year; and likewise Dallas wins a handful more games easily.
    do the cowboys have Cameron and our receiving core in this scenario? because no, Romo doesnt throw for 4k and 90-100 rating in this system with our WRs and likely doesnt win as many games as Flacco has even with our defense. in a more open offense (that most of us here would like) and more talented receiving core does Flacco throw for 4k and a 90-100? I think he easily can as hes thrown for 3.6 and has had a low 90s rating. Hes built for this system, but this system is greatly limited in statistical ability. Romo isnt built for this system and wouldnt produce as well as he does in his system, where hes an ideal QB, although lacking clutch ability. Its a scenario we wont ever know a true answer to, at least not until they get rid of cam and his outdated system and get Joe some better talent and maybe can compare apples to apples a little more but even then itll be difficult.

    ftr... bad stats dont always mean a bad WR, and good stats dont always mean youre great either. there is such thing as a system WR, guys that arent very good but can produce good numbers in a particular system taking advantage of their strengths. one would think this is the job of every OC in the league, but there are plenty that dont adjust their system to their talent.
    -JAB




  3. #48
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    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The point is you and others use circular logic in an effort to make your points. You define "good receivers" as guys who put up stats, you then use "good receivers" to argue the QB has it easier. But of course the QB can be and is responsible for the "good stats" in the first place. Likewise, you use "bad stats" to argue that the receiver isn't great, of course in the case of Robinson, you claim he was a good receiver all along despite the bad stats because the contrary doesn't fit the narrative. A similar argument of convenience is used to explain Boldin's dropoff.

    At the end of the day the W's and L's argument when describing individuals is stupid, for all the reasons given multiple times on this forum and elsewhere. Romo has choked a few times but that moniker, much like P. Manning's is overdone; many times people ignore the fact Romo gave the team the lead in the first place with his 90-100 QB rating, before the rare "choke". We have no idea what happens if Romo and Flacco switched places, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that if the Ravens defense and the Cowboys defense switched places, we don't win against Houston in the playoffs, nor do we win about 4-5 other games last year; and likewise Dallas wins a handful more games easily.
    Ok, but you could say the exact same thing about the Steelers and the Cowboys. Switch those defenses and Ben loses more games and Romo wins more games. Like I have said before, when you have players like Eli, receivers making miracle catches ontop of their helmet, or two defenders on them and reach out and catch the ball and get their feet inbounds just to continue drives, any QB can look good.
    How many times has Joe put the pass right on our receivers' hands and they simply dropped them. A number of them would have been game winning touchdowns. Take those drops away and Joe might have been in 3 out of the last 4 super bowls.
    How would everyone look at him then?




  4. #49
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    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The point is you and others use circular logic in an effort to make your points. You define "good receivers" as guys who put up stats, you then use "good receivers" to argue the QB has it easier. But of course the QB can be and is responsible for the "good stats" in the first place. Likewise, you use "bad stats" to argue that the receiver isn't great, of course in the case of Robinson, you claim he was a good receiver all along despite the bad stats because the contrary doesn't fit the narrative. A similar argument of convenience is used to explain Boldin's dropoff.
    No, I'm saying that one of the biggest reasons - or most logical reason - for Laurent Robinson's production was because he wasn't (A) the #1 receiver on an offense that favors the pass over the run and (B) he was healthy for the entire season, which is something that IIRC he hasn't been EVER in his career to date.

    I don't use stats at all to argue a good receiver vs a bad receiver. It's symbiotic, so obviously a receiver with Peyton Manning on the other end of the ball is going to have a higher probability of putting up "good numbers" versus a receiver who has John Beck throwing him the ball. However, I'm looking at it from the other end of the spectrum. The Ravens' receivers have historically just not been very good. It's not that they're bad players, per se, but they don't necessarily fit the scheme and the Ravens have historically not been very good at developing receivers and/or drafting talented receivers. To date, Torrey Smith is the only receiver the Ravens have drafted that looks the part. Derrick Mason and Anquan Boldin were seasoned vets before even putting on a Ravens uniform. I think a lot of it has to do with scheme and if Jason Garrett were the offensive coordinator here in Baltimore, then maybe we'd likely see the receivers putting up better numbers, but right now they're not and I don't think there is any fan who would say no to trading Boldin for Dez Bryant or Miles Austin straight up. Why? Because they're better players. They're younger, bigger, & faster. It's pretty plain and simple from my perspective.

    At the end of the day the W's and L's argument when describing individuals is stupid, for all the reasons given multiple times on this forum and elsewhere. Romo has choked a few times but that moniker, much like P. Manning's is overdone; many times people ignore the fact Romo gave the team the lead in the first place with his 90-100 QB rating, before the rare "choke". We have no idea what happens if Romo and Flacco switched places, but I can tell you with 100% confidence that if the Ravens defense and the Cowboys defense switched places, we don't win against Houston in the playoffs, nor do we win about 4-5 other games last year; and likewise Dallas wins a handful more games easily.
    You're right. What was I thinking? Who cares if a guy can't find ways to win games as long as he throws for 5000 yards and 30 TD's in a season, right? What do people have to say about Dan Marino? "He's the best QB to never win a Super Bowl". What do people say about Trent Dilfer? "Super Bowl QB." I've even heard Marino say that he'd give up all of his stats for a title.

    The Ravens defense allowed the Texans back into that playoff game by letting Arian Foster run all over them. If the Texans had Matt Schaub instead of a late round developmental rookie, I think it would have been an entirely different game. Even against a defense that had ridiculous pressure and had 5 sacks on the day, Flacco still found ways to put points on the board and not make costly turnovers. Who led the Ravens back to a W in Pittsburgh after that vaunted Ravens defense let the Steelers take the lead?

    Who had their team up 27-3 in the 3rd quarter and threw pick-6's on back-to-back drives to let the Lions back into the game heading into the 4th quarter?

    If you put Joe Flacco on the Cowboys of last year I bet they're a playoff team and Flacco probably throws for well over 4000 yards. Not even necessarily because of the receivers, but the offensive philosophy is so geared towards the pass and in Baltimore it's not.

    I respect your opinion, but I don't agree with it at all.

    I'll take a guy who finds ways to win over a guy with pretty numbers any day of the week.
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  5. #50
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    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens44 View Post
    Ok, but you could say the exact same thing about the Steelers and the Cowboys. Switch those defenses and Ben loses more games and Romo wins more games. Like I have said before, when you have players like Eli, receivers making miracle catches ontop of their helmet, or two defenders on them and reach out and catch the ball and get their feet inbounds just to continue drives, any QB can look good.
    How many times has Joe put the pass right on our receivers' hands and they simply dropped them. A number of them would have been game winning touchdowns. Take those drops away and Joe might have been in 3 out of the last 4 super bowls.
    How would everyone look at him then?
    Milk is for babies. When you grow up, you have to drink beer.

    -Arnold Schwarzenegger



    Check out Fatherhood Rules - a blog site dedicated to sports, food, music, movies, and politics.
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  6. #51
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    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Who would you want to drive down the field to attempt to put you ahead in a conference championship game, Flacco or Romo?

    For me, Flacco hands down. Not even close. Romo is a good QB and he has had a few comebacks but could he do what Flacco did the last 2 years in Pittsburgh or in NE in the AFCCG? I don't think so, your mileage may vary.




  7. #52
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    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I think the biggest reason is because Romo threw some really dogged passes last year and literally lost a couple of games for them.


    I'm not one of those Ravens fans who think Flacco is the ever greatest best thing ever, but I do strongly feel that Tony Romo is pretty overrated. He's had some of the best receivers to throw the ball to over the past couple of years and that can really help any QB look good. Could you imagine if Flacco had Jason Witten, Miles Austin, & Dez Bryant as his top 3 receivers?
    And the fact that he plays in a dome, doesn't experience the brutality of the AFC North defenses, and doesn't have to play in freezing cold winter conditions in Ohio, Pittsburgh and Baltimore in outdoor stadiums.




  8. #53

    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Wins and losses don't use it in an argument please. Also someone give a specific example how Romo "lost" games. Let's not forget how Flacco has gotten away with making bad decisions in his career. Regardless of the talent on the Cowboys offense Romo puts up the best numbers among all QBs. He's underrated just from all the nonsense of how he loses games by himself lol.




  9. #54

    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    Who would you want to drive down the field to attempt to put you ahead in a conference championship game, Flacco or Romo?

    For me, Flacco hands down. Not even close. Romo is a good QB and he has had a few comebacks but could he do what Flacco did the last 2 years in Pittsburgh or in NE in the AFCCG? I don't think so, your mileage may vary.
    I'm pretty sure Romo could do that. It would probably be easier for Romo becuase he has better teammates on offense. The problem with the Cowboys defense is that they're bad so the offense had to play in shoot outs. In those games the Ravens defense were able to keep the score close so that it would take one scoring drive to win the game. Playing good defense throughout the game would help the Cowboys win more.




  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by seraph View Post
    Wins and losses don't use it in an argument please. Also someone give a specific example how Romo "lost" games. Let's not forget how Flacco has gotten away with making bad decisions in his career. Regardless of the talent on the Cowboys offense Romo puts up the best numbers among all QBs. He's underrated just from all the nonsense of how he loses games by himself lol.
    Its pretty fair to judge him by wins and loses when you consider the level of talent around him his entire career.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...r-the-cowboys/

    “We win that football game if I don’t do what I did. We lost this game because of me,” Romo said. *
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

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  11. #56
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    Oh yea and:

    http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/story/1...hnson-and-romo


    My favorite Romo play was the last play of the game with the 4th and 20 dump off to Felix Jones. LOL.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  12. #57
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    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by seraph View Post
    Wins and losses don't use it in an argument please. Also someone give a specific example how Romo "lost" games. Let's not forget how Flacco has gotten away with making bad decisions in his career. Regardless of the talent on the Cowboys offense Romo puts up the best numbers among all QBs. He's underrated just from all the nonsense of how he loses games by himself lol.
    A specific example?

    Tony Romo threw an interception to Darrelle Revis late in the fourth quarter that set up Nick Folk's 50-yard game-winning field goal against his former team.
    Tony Romo put the Dallas Cowboys ahead by 24 points with his third touchdown pass right after halftime. That lead wasn't enough after he followed that with three interceptions.

    Two of the picks were returned for touchdowns, and the third set up Detroit's game-winning score with 1:39 left as the Cowboys blew their largest lead ever to lose, 34-30 to the undefeated Lions on Sunday.
    "What would you give for the man beside you?"




  13. #58

    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    Its pretty fair to judge him by wins and loses when you consider the level of talent around him his entire career.

    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com...r-the-cowboys/

    “We win that football game if I don’t do what I did. We lost this game because of me,” Romo said. *
    He's been great his entire career there's no fraudulence. The Cowboys just haven't been able overcome some of Romo's "bad decisions" that's all.




  14. #59

    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    Quote Originally Posted by Jayc00 View Post
    A specific example?
    Yeah he wasn't the only one who played like ass in those losses.




  15. #60
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    Re: joe flacco #74 on nfl network top 100

    By no means do I think Flacco is the greatest QB in the league, but damn, have the Cowboys even won a playoff game with Romo???

    Seriously Flacco may have the worst job in professional sports - being a Ravens QB. He can't win regardless of what he does. The only way his job could be worse is if Tebow was the backup.




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