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  1. #25
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?



    Quote Originally Posted by srobert96 View Post
    There is a lot of unknowns. It really depends on what the new collective bargaining agreement looks like. It also depends on what the agreement is among owners as to the power and latitude the league has to impose penalties. There may a vague rule that governs franchises around trying to gain a competitive advantage. It would allow the nfl to cover things that may or may not be covered under specific rules. While on the surface it looks bogus the rules for governing the NFL are different than a typical business. The other owners voted to approve the punishment and the NFLPA approved the punishment and that may be enough.
    That's enough as long as it doesn't leave the confines of the NFL. Once it becomes a legal issue then you are dealing with something bigger. I'm not sure it will get there though. That's why they are trying to deal with this through an arbitrator. If both sides agree to go with what he says it won't go any further than his decision.

    There is a time factor though for his decision. The Cowboys do not have enough money for their rookie pool. They are counting on this ruling or else they will clear some cap space. My guess is they will take the tag off of Anthony Spencer if that happens. The Redskins still have $8 million in cap space so is doesn't really effect them.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  2. #26

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah W View Post
    Because the Commish said not to, or in other words collusion.
    Without collusion, the NFL couldn't operate the way it does. Every time these 32 separate entities/corporations make a decision as if they were a single entity, it's collusion. They colluded when they decided that Nike will be the sole provider of NFL jerseys. Otherwise, each team could have their jerseys made by a different company. Throwing out the term collusion now means absolutely nothing, because the league could not operate if the teams didn't collude.




  3. #27

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    I think that many people are forgetting that this is a private corporation (albeit a non-profit) and not the government. People often tend to make this mistake when referring to by-laws and procedure. The government has to work by certain constitutional restrictions, and allow for appeals and checks and balances, but corporations and organizations really don't. In this case, I think that it hinges on the Commissioner being able to use his discression and judgement in the best interest of the game. Most of the fans out there don't really understand that because of the way that they think about how the government would handle things, but with a company, it's different.

    Granted, it was stupid of them to approve the contracts, but I don't think that this will be the silver bullet that wins the Girls and the Landorvians the case. They probably approved the contracts because they didn't know how the two team's cap would look at the time, and how the future cap would look.

    In my opinion, it wasn't really a punishment at all. A punishment would have been a fine, loss of draft picks, or suspension. This was essentially a dissallowance of unfair cap relief that the teams obtained. Think about our friends down I-95. They got out of a horrible contract that was a gamble that didn't work out. Such a cut would have set most teams back years, but instead of working with him, and riding it out a few years to see if it improved, they saw an opportunity to free up a lot of cap space and act like that signing never happened. Many people forget why the Redskins had 36 mil to use this year. They rolled over a lot from the previous season. So essentially, the league is putting the Redskins in the situation that they should have been in had they cut Fat Albert in a normal season.

    But many I'm more sensitive to this subject because of how the Yankees have destroyed baseball by not having a cap and other protections in the game. I'm alright with anything that takes money out of the equation.




  4. #28
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by KidSampson View Post
    Without collusion, the NFL couldn't operate the way it does. Every time these 32 separate entities/corporations make a decision as if they were a single entity, it's collusion. They colluded when they decided that Nike will be the sole provider of NFL jerseys. Otherwise, each team could have their jerseys made by a different company. Throwing out the term collusion now means absolutely nothing, because the league could not operate if the teams didn't collude.
    Exactly.

    The term collusion, when applied to labor issues, isn't the dictionary definition of the word.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  5. #29

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trackmaster View Post
    But many I'm more sensitive to this subject because of how the Yankees have destroyed baseball by not having a cap and other protections in the game. I'm alright with anything that takes money out of the equation.
    Yup. Which is funny when you think about it since of all the major sports that "collude", only baseball does it legally with an antitrust exemption. Yet they act more like separate entities than any of the other leagues (no salary cap, independent TV deals, etc). Go figure.




  6. #30

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    All of the contracts were approved by the league and there was no rule, regulation, or covenant that prohibited the Redskins and Cowboys conduct at the time of the contracts.

    This whole business to me is simply the NFL punishing two teams for not engaging in collusion, a practice which (unlike the Redskins and Cowboys contracts) is specifically prohibited.

    The NFL deserves to get egg on their face over this in a huge way. If DC and Dallas really, really want to, they have the nuclear option in their back pocket of ratting out the NFL's unspoken collusion practices to whoever will listen. That would blow up the entire NFL.
    WORD!




  7. #31

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    there are a couple of key points.

    1. Even though it was an uncapped year there were all sorts of limitations built into the expired CBA that every team complied with.

    2. The NFL warned teams at the time not to do things beyond the agreement that was in place. They then approved these deals because they complied with that agreement. It was a on the record approval but an off the record 'you shouldn't have done that'.
    All the deals were approved by the league office, because they were within the rules. They were "legal". Therefor there is no grounds for punishment, and the league's treatment of the Skins and Boyz is capricious and arbitrary and should be overturned.

    The league offices told the teams to collude to keep salaries down in the uncapped, no-collective-bargaining-agreement year. That is flat-out illegal. That's the reason the "you shouldn't have done that" business is off the record and unofficial: because collusion in the labor market is illegal. The league has sought cover on this, by getting the union to sign off on it, by keeping the total NFL cap number the same (redistributing the Skins & Boyz cap number across the other teams). They've bought the union's silence to get away with the collusion.

    Then they punished Washington & Dallas for not toeing the line in the illegal activity the other 30 teams performed.

    It's horrendous bullshit, it really should be overturned. It is kinda funny to see it happen to Snyder and Skeltor, so I might not mind if the appeal gets denied. But the actions by the league are ridiculous the more you look at them. Terrible precedent, should not be allowed to stand.

    I did not love Tagliabue, but he was an attorney. I find it hard to believe that the league would be trying to pull this lawless crap, under his watch.




  8. #32
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Starting to get the sense that folks do not quite understand the legal definition of "collusion"

    The legal definition of collusion is "where two or more persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating."

    So lets take that one point by point:

    1. Deceitful Agreement, usually secret -- The 30 owners voted openly to take this money away from the Skins and Cowboys. There was nothing secret about it. The two parties that DID engage in a deceitful agreement were the Skins and Cowboys when they shunned off the 6 warnings they got from the league to no back-load contracts in an uncapped year.

    2. Defraud and / or gain an unfair advantage -- This is absolutely clear that's what the Skins and Cowboys were caught doing. The league, in their warning, told the teams that moving contract money to the uncapped year was precisely this. Moving that money would have gave the Skins and Cowboys an unfair advantage in terms signing free agents once the new CBA was signed, hence why contracts were allowed. Nobody had a way of knowing how the new CBA would be written or what the cap ceiling / floor was going to be.

    3. With those whom they are negotiating -- The owners do not negotiate amongst themselves, they negotiate with the players via the NFLPA. I don't think they needed the NFLPA's approval, but once they did get it, it removed any claim of collusion.

    In short, there was nothing illegal about any of this. The NFL is a non-profit, not a governmental body.

    With all that said, the magistrate may still say this was unfair, based on no written rule. That, more than this collusion nonsense, will be the reason, if any, this gets reversed. Even still, if 30 owners are prepared to say there were indeed 6 verbal warnings, that's more than enough in the private sector.

    If your boss warns you 6 times not to do something, you do it anyway with the notion "hey, it's not a written rule", you're going to find out the hard way just how much weight a verbal directive really has.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  9. #33
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    It was an uncapped year. There was nothing in writing to say they shouldn't rework some of their contracts. An agreement 'in spirit' just doesn't typically hold up in court but then again the NFL's rights to maintain competetive balance may override things.

    This is a good article:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...JzBU_blog.html
    I am not a lawyer but agreements in spirit or oral agreements can indeed hold up in court.




  10. #34
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Starting to get the sense that folks do not quite understand the legal definition of "collusion"

    The legal definition of collusion is "where two or more persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating."

    So lets take that one point by point:

    1. Deceitful Agreement, usually secret -- The 30 owners voted openly to take this money away from the Skins and Cowboys. There was nothing secret about it. The two parties that DID engage in a deceitful agreement were the Skins and Cowboys when they shunned off the 6 warnings they got from the league to no back-load contracts in an uncapped year.

    2. Defraud and / or gain an unfair advantage -- This is absolutely clear that's what the Skins and Cowboys were caught doing. The league, in their warning, told the teams that moving contract money to the uncapped year was precisely this. Moving that money would have gave the Skins and Cowboys an unfair advantage in terms signing free agents once the new CBA was signed, hence why contracts were allowed. Nobody had a way of knowing how the new CBA would be written or what the cap ceiling / floor was going to be.

    3. With those whom they are negotiating -- The owners do not negotiate amongst themselves, they negotiate with the players via the NFLPA. I don't think they needed the NFLPA's approval, but once they did get it, it removed any claim of collusion.

    In short, there was nothing illegal about any of this. The NFL is a non-profit, not a governmental body.

    With all that said, the magistrate may still say this was unfair, based on no written rule. That, more than this collusion nonsense, will be the reason, if any, this gets reversed. Even still, if 30 owners are prepared to say there were indeed 6 verbal warnings, that's more than enough in the private sector.

    If your boss warns you 6 times not to do something, you do it anyway with the notion "hey, it's not a written rule", you're going to find out the hard way just how much weight a verbal directive really has.
    The deceitful agreement was made at time. The 3rd party they were trying to deceive was the NFLPA. There was an agreement in place from the previous CBA that had rules for an uncapped year. The NFL colluded by coming up with additional secret rules in an attempt to keep salaries low for their negotiations with the NFLPA. It was collusion but since the NFLPA doesn't seem to mind that part is not an issue and isn't being challenged.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  11. #35
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    The deceitful agreement was made at time. The 3rd party they were trying to deceive was the NFLPA. There was an agreement in place from the previous CBA that had rules for an uncapped year. The NFL colluded by coming up with additional secret rules in an attempt to keep salaries low for their negotiations with the NFLPA. It was collusion but since the NFLPA doesn't seem to mind that part is not an issue and isn't being challenged.
    Huh?

    The NFLPA agreed to it. How do you deceive someone that was involved in the agreement?

    And what of any of this was secret? The 32 owners were told not to do this. 30 of them agreed to it. 30 of them voted to strip the money with the NFLPA's blessing.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  12. #36

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    The legal definition of collusion is "where two or more persons (or business entities through their officers or other employees) enter into a deceitful agreement, usually secret, to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating."

    So lets take that one point by point:
    Yes indeed, let's.

    two or more persons or business entities

    The 30 NFL teams, other than Dallas and Washington. Check.

    a deceitful agreement, usually secret

    Not always secret, check. It was reported before the uncapped year that the NFL was instituting "guidelines" for teams to deal with the uncapped year. The guidelines themselves were not publicized, so those can be construed as secret.

    to defraud and/or gain an unfair advantage over a third party, competitors, consumers or those with whom they are negotiating

    The NFL teams gained an unfair advantage over the players during the uncapped year, with whom they are negotiating, by behaving as if a salary cap was still in place when it was not. The unfair advantage they gained was the artificial restraint in player prices. They kept free agent contracts down.

    Check.

    The collusion we are discussing is not the NFL's decision to slap Dallas & Washington. The collusion consisted in their tactics of keeping salaries down in the uncapped year. Textbook collusion.

    Dallas & Washington were the only teams who behaved legally during the uncapped year. The league is punishing them for not falling in line with the rest of the gang.

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    In short, there was nothing illegal about any of this.
    Utterly illegal.

    The NFL may still get away with it, because they got the players union to go along with it, by redistributing the "revoked cap money" among the other teams. The union is really the only complainant who would be likely to take the league to court, so buying them off was an important step.

    Most of this is about the league trying to legitimize actions it took as a whole during the uncapped year, that were blatantly illegal. Actually, slapping Dallas & Washington looks pretty stupid, to me. It draws attention to an issue that the league really should let go away.




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