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  1. #121

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    That's your opinion of how things went down. I'd love to see this record to which you're referring. This also means you consider the owners meetings every year to be secretive. You're also assuming none of this was relayed to the NFLPA (such a "requirement" is debatable at best).



    What misinterpretation? If you have a problem with how the law is written or applied, your quarrel is with the laws authors and the courts.

    And what's going on with the NFL is nothing close to the collusion that MLB was engaged. I respectfully suggest you read up on the MLB's history because they were most certainly colluding and go caught.

    Again, just because the owner met and decided something does not rise to the legal standard of collusion. The legal standard is that meeting was done to defraud or otherwise injure the other party (i.e. the players).

    I already addressed all this. Nothing new here. Suffice it to say that using your definition, what occurred can easily be argued as collusion. If the owners were dumb enough to tell the NFLPA they were agreeing amongst themselves to a hard cap in the agreed-upon uncapped year, then I think we would have heard about this a long time ago, and this suit would have already been settled (with the NFLPA winning). Therefore, and also considering Smith is claiming he just found out about it (is he lying? what advantage did he see in waiting 2 years to sue?), I think the odds the NFLPA had any inkling about the alleged agreement are slim to none.
    Last edited by Haloti92; 05-23-2012 at 02:21 PM.





  2. #122
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    From what I am reading, the NFLPA is suddenly accusing them of agreeing to a hard cap (of apparently $123m). But this seems dubious considering several teams went over this number.

    There is some obscure and complicated maneuvering going on between Smith and Goodell, and it started over a year ago. Smith apparently signed off on something (what seems to be in contention) regarding the way the league wanted to police its ownership regarding the 2010 year.

    Maybe Smith thought: what the heck, if the cap penalties for the Skins and Cowboys are added and spread to the other teams then my players do not lose compensation (from the penalty) and there is a good chance the arbiter will overturn those penalties which gives my players even more compensation.

    So he signed off. Then when the arbiter ruled against the Skins and Cowboys (which likely occurred because there was no agrieved party once the NFLPA signed off on the punishments, and this was a case of an internal fight among the ownership/league), Smith decided he would renege on his agreement. Or, more accurately, he would claim he didn't agree to as much as Goodell thinks he did (to forgive any and all past transgressions).

    It is a fiasco, imo. Whether there was a plan (by Smith) to do this all along, I'm not sure.
    You are following this more closely than I, as I just don't care.

    From my standpoint the owners didn't collude on anything as far as I can tell.

    I do have one question (for anyone who can answer). When the owners were told not to dump money in to the uncapped year was this done when there was a CBA?





  3. #123

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    You are following this more closely than I, as I just don't care.

    From my standpoint the owners didn't collude on anything as far as I can tell.

    I do have one question (for anyone who can answer). When the owners were told not to dump money in to the uncapped year was this done when there was a CBA?
    In 2010, the league was operating under the "Final League Year" of the 2006 CBA agreement. There were a few special rules during this year, but there was no salary cap according to the rules/agreement. As to the special (and apparently vague) rules about how to proceed with no salary cap, B-More Ravor would be the one to ask. I have yet to find any specifics, when it comes to dumping, etc.

    As for when, what and how they were told (separate from the rules in the 2006 CBA), I also don't know specifically, but my perception is it was in 2010 (multiple times), not to dump money into 2010, and in owners meetings (not sure if there were written warnings).





  4. #124

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    EDIT: It also looks like the league will defend itself here by claiming that the NFLPA, when it signed the recent CBA, waived its rights to sue for past violations (i.e. instances of collusion):

    Greg Aiello, NFL spokesman: "On multiple occasions, the players and their representatives specifically dismissed all claims, known or unknown, whether pending or not, alleged violations of the 2006 CBA and the related settlement agreement. We continue to look forward to focusing on the future of the game rather than grievances of a prior era that have already been resolved."
    Yeah, I thought the new CBA came with a full settlement of all claims (I recall it being termed as a "universal settlement).
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

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  5. #125
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Yeah, I thought the new CBA came with a full settlement of all claims (I recall it being termed as a "universal settlement).
    According to the article I read this morning on it when the players agreed to and signed the new CBA that basically said that the NFLPA couldn't file any lawsuits like this against the owners.

    Going back to that year (2010), I remember seeing some stuff on NFL Network about how at owner's meetings they all voted/put out/decided upon not to take advantage of the uncapped year by doing salary dumps. There were signs that some teams were starting to do just that and it was put out multiple times that there could (would) be consequences to any team that did dump their salaries. I even think that once the Redskins accelerated Haynesworth's contract one of the NFL analysts said that could come back to bite them down the road.

    By my understanding there was no collusion involved because it didn't negatively injure/defame/impact a specific target. There were no conspiratorial acts by the owners. Just a gentleman's agreement on how to operate the uncapped year.

    Players still got paid.

    A new CBA was agreed upon.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  6. #126

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Well, the good news about all of this is that it's coming after the new CBA, so we'll still have football no matter what.

    Had this come up at this time last year, who knows how much it would have impacted the CBA negotiations? My guess, it wouldn't have been in a good way.
    “Talk's cheap - let’s go play.” - #19, Johnny Unitas

    Follow me on Twitter @ravenssalarycap





  7. #127

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    Well, the good news about all of this is that it's coming after the new CBA, so we'll still have football no matter what.

    Had this come up at this time last year, who knows how much it would have impacted the CBA negotiations? My guess, it wouldn't have been in a good way.
    Totally agree. Think the owners realized that and decided to follow the old adage of "revenge is a dish best served cold" lol
    “A linebacker's job is to knock out running backs, to knock out receivers, to chase the football,”
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  8. #128

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    According to the article I read this morning on it when the players agreed to and signed the new CBA that basically said that the NFLPA couldn't file any lawsuits like this against the owners.

    Going back to that year (2010), I remember seeing some stuff on NFL Network about how at owner's meetings they all voted/put out/decided upon not to take advantage of the uncapped year by doing salary dumps. There were signs that some teams were starting to do just that and it was put out multiple times that there could (would) be consequences to any team that did dump their salaries. I even think that once the Redskins accelerated Haynesworth's contract one of the NFL analysts said that could come back to bite them down the road.

    By my understanding there was no collusion involved because it didn't negatively injure/defame/impact a specific target. There were no conspiratorial acts by the owners. Just a gentleman's agreement on how to operate the uncapped year.

    Players still got paid.

    A new CBA was agreed upon.
    The problem is, violating a gentleman's agreement should only result in losing the label of "gentleman." When you agree to penalties for violating a gentlemen's agreement it no longer can be considered a gentlemen's agreement. Clearly Jones and Snyder are no gentlemen, lol.

    And as for the 'players were still paid,' if the new allegation about the hard cap agreement is true (and again, it seems dubious to me), that would mean the players were still paid, but paid less than they would have been otherwise. The same argument can be made about the agreement not to dump cap, but less solidly (and not solidly at all if the old CBA contained language that already prohibited such moves).





  9. #129
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    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haloti92 View Post
    The problem is, violating a gentleman's agreement should only result in losing the label of "gentleman." When you agree to penalties for violating a gentlemen's agreement it no longer can be considered a gentlemen's agreement. Clearly Jones and Snyder are no gentlemen, lol.

    And as for the 'players were still paid,' if the new allegation about the hard cap agreement is true (and again, it seems dubious to me), that would mean the players were still paid, but paid less than they would have been otherwise. The same argument can be made about the agreement not to dump cap, but less solidly (and not solidly at all if the old CBA contained language that already prohibited such moves).
    Well, that would depend on their contractual agreements with the franchise.

    Free Agents could have potentially cashed in a lot more, but that is unlikely as well given that most of the NFL owners wouldn't pay a guy $10 million dollars for a season when his value is only $3 million per year.

    This is also something that is between the owners...not the players. It's the majority of the owners who moved to have consequences levied on Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones. According to everything we know (without having been present during those owners meetings) there was a consensus on how to operate the "salary cap" in an uncapped year and that any team caught taking advantage of that could be subject to consequences later on.

    I don't really see how the NFLPA has anything at all regarding collusion.

    Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones are jack asses for owners and have been culprits of messing up the "market" for a lot of other teams. As Ravor already noted in another thread, because of the Skins dumping that $21 mill onto Haynesworth that year it bumped up Ngata's franchise tag by something like $5.5 million, which severely limited what the Ravens were able to do until they got Ngata signed to his new deal. That's just one small case.

    It's not surprising that Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones aren't well liked by a lot of the other owners.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  10. #130

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Well, that would depend on their contractual agreements with the franchise.

    Free Agents could have potentially cashed in a lot more, but that is unlikely as well given that most of the NFL owners wouldn't pay a guy $10 million dollars for a season when his value is only $3 million per year.

    This is also something that is between the owners...not the players. It's the majority of the owners who moved to have consequences levied on Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones. According to everything we know (without having been present during those owners meetings) there was a consensus on how to operate the "salary cap" in an uncapped year and that any team caught taking advantage of that could be subject to consequences later on.

    I don't really see how the NFLPA has anything at all regarding collusion.

    Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones are jack asses for owners and have been culprits of messing up the "market" for a lot of other teams. As Ravor already noted in another thread, because of the Skins dumping that $21 mill onto Haynesworth that year it bumped up Ngata's franchise tag by something like $5.5 million, which severely limited what the Ravens were able to do until they got Ngata signed to his new deal. That's just one small case.

    It's not surprising that Dan Snyder and Jerry Jones aren't well liked by a lot of the other owners.
    As to the accusation of the hard cap agreement, I don't think the argument that 'the owners would not have paid the players much more even without the agreement' is very compelling, precisely because if it were true, then there becomes no need for the agreement in the first place.

    This new lawsuit is somewhat separate from the Jones/Snyder deal, the charges are regarding a hard cap versus the salary dumping. But I can't help but think that it was filed (in terms of timing) after the league provided some evidence of collusive behavior by penalizing two teams that didn't abide by the unwritten agreement. In other words, Smith might have decided "what better way to show that the owners had private agreements that resulted in my players being paid less overall than to wait until the league officially penalizes two teams for violating the private agreement." Without any penalties, it is harder to prove any agreement actually existed.

    As for the owners policing themselves and/or deciding to penalize two of their kind, I agree with you, but there are limits as to what they can legally do in this regard as well. Both in terms of how their penalties/policing affect the players (the other side in the negotiations of their business) and in terms of anti-trust laws, how they penalize each other aside from things that affect the players.

    31 owners cannot arbitrarily decide to impose a large penalty on a single owner because they feel like it or because they don't like him. Between that scenario and an owner that clearly violates a written league rule there is a lot of room, and in this room is where Jones and Snyder fall, imo. But in terms of the likelihood that their defense of "we abided by the established rules, we just didn't go along with the optional agreement/collusion" would succeed, they needed someone to claim they were colluded against. The arbiter apparently felt there was no aggrieved party in terms of the way the NFL penalized Jones/Snyder (because the NFLPA signed off and the penalty cap space was redistributed), this severely undermined Jones/Snyder's chance of winning the appeal. Obviously, if, as B-More says, the old CBA covered salary-dumping, then they were left with no legs to stand on.





  11. #131

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    No NFL owner with a brain in his head would want to test the anti-trust limits on the league's authority. Kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? I think not.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.





  12. #132

    Re: Will Washington and Dallas get their cap money back?

    Quote Originally Posted by festivus View Post
    No NFL owner with a brain in his head would want to test the anti-trust limits on the league's authority. Kill the goose that lays the golden eggs? I think not.
    I agree which is why Jones and Snyder quickly said they would not appeal the arbiter's decision.

    However there are hypothetical extremes (which would never occur in the first place) where an owner might be forced to fight, like if the vast majority of owners decided to very severely punish an owner for dubious reasons. Or an owner felt the league was unfairly costing him a lot of money (see Al Davis, oh wait, you said brain in his head, nvm). That obviously doesn't apply here though.





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