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  1. #61
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?



    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    I was saying to my lovely wife (who may be as liberal as Galen) that while Obama would see a short term bump, the long term will be a net negative. For one, it will soften the evangelical black vote. Two, it would hand-deliver to Romney something he's been seeking since last year -- conservatives to come to his side.

    Looks like that happened. He's up 50-43 with likely voters.

    http://realclearpolitics.com/epolls/...bama-1171.html

    The President above all else is calculating and politically savvy. He did NOT want to make that so-called declaration.
    I think I remember you mentioning your wife is also somewhat religious, while you are not. Do you just not talk politics or religion, or do you ever find common ground?

    My wife (yes I call her that even though we're not "married") don't really talk about religion but on ideology she is conservative just doesn't pay attention to politics.




  2. #62
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    I think I remember you mentioning your wife is also somewhat religious, while you are not. Do you just not talk politics or religion, or do you ever find common ground?

    My wife (yes I call her that even though we're not "married") don't really talk about religion but on ideology she is conservative just doesn't pay attention to politics.
    We debate and talk about politics very often. She's more religious than I, but that's not saying much since I am a deist, with Locke being one of my favorite philosophers.

    There are some things where we have found common ground. She never had even been in the same room with a gun before we met. Now, she's an avid / incredibly accurate shooter now and just got her concealed handgun license. Because of her job, she is very anti-union.

    With the issue of gay marriage, she's all about the government being involved, regulating, etc whereas I am more libertarian in that regard. We have gay couples as very close friends and I had a gay man as one of my groomsmen. For us, it's such a non-issue. We just disagree as to the extent of governments involvement in marriage as a whole.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  3. #63
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Please tell me I am not the only one who sees the contradiction here...?

    On one hand you say Obama is doing this as a political move but still support him. On the other hand you criticize republicans for the political moves they make and say that's why you can't support them.
    This is why I don't even read the guy. This newb is just some arrogant kid who
    always contradicts himself. He must be related to our favorite shrink.
    UBER RAVENS FAN AND HISTORIAN GURU.




  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    This is why I don't even read the guy. This newb is just some arrogant kid who
    always contradicts himself. He must be related to our favorite shrink.
    Don't read it then, I certainly don't want, or need your approval. I didn't actually contradict myself. I saidI can't stand republican views on social issues because they're very backward. I'm a firm believer in upholding the rights of everyone.
    I'm also a firm believer that religion had no place in politics. Therefore I find it pretty hard to support any republican candidate in the current political climate.
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  5. #65
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by CptJesus View Post
    Don't read it then, I certainly don't want, or need your approval. I didn't actually contradict myself. I saidI can't stand republican views on social issues because they're very backward. I'm a firm believer in upholding the rights of everyone.
    I'm also a firm believer that religion had no place in politics. Therefore I find it pretty hard to support any republican candidate in the current political climate.
    Sent from my SCH-I510 using Tapatalk 2
    If you think anything any politician does right now, or really ever isn't politically motivated, then you are absolutely clueless. I'm a fairly staunch Obama supporter and I can still admit that this was an entirely political move.

    However, conservative ideology social issues tends to be so add backwards it makes me gag. It's one of the bigger reasons my vote will stay with Obama. Conservative pandering to the religious right has completely turned me off.
    The contradiction is that you see Obama's political move or "pandering" and you still support him, but Republicans "pandering" turns you off.

    If Obama was lying all those years about his belief on marriage and civil unions, wasn't he doing the same of what turns you off about republicans?




  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    The contradiction is that you see Obama's political move or "pandering" and you still support him, but Republicans "pandering" turns you off.

    If Obama was lying all those years about his belief on marriage and civil unions, wasn't he doing the same of what turns you off about republicans?
    No, because the method of doing it is completely different. Republicans are outright saying that gays are secondary citizens. Women too. The democrats have a much better track record on both issues by doing absolutely nothing. Yes Obama is bullshitting but I can at least say that Don't ask don't tell was repealed during his watch. It's a small step in the right direction.

    Romney did absolutely everything in his power to prevent gay marriage in Massachusetts. Why should I think it wouldn't be any different if he were president?

    I can see where you might see a contradiction, but all I'm saying is that I'm far more inclined to vote for anyone who doesn't come out and say the gay community should be treated as inferior. I'm rather fed up of this entire political cycle at this point, since neither choice is really all that appealing. Then again, that's been true for the past three elections

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  7. #67

    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    This is why I don't even read the guy. This newb is just some arrogant kid who
    always contradicts himself. He must be related to our favorite shrink.
    You encapsulate the neo-conservative mindset so predictably with this quote. Insult those who view the world through a lens different than your own and ignore them, while in-so-doing ignoring the flailing contradictions you yourself represent.

    Why don't you explain to our readers how your movement's clamoring for smaller government isn't contradicted by your opposition to same sex marriage? Or how the legislating of a pregnant woman's private parts constitutes "less intrusive government"?

    You've been duped with words like "liberty" you can say but don't truly understand...

    If you don't support any human being's right to do whatever the **** they want so long as it isn't demonstrably infringing upon someone else, shame on you. Prisoners and convicts can get married in your America, but two peace-loving, law-abiding men or women cannot. It defies all logic.

    This isn't about whether or not government should be involved in marriage. That's either a cop-out or a distraction because it already is. It's an entirely separate conversation (though perhaps not without merit). It's also not so much about politics IMO. I view this as a politically neutral annoucement (one which by the way respects the state's rights neo-cons claim to care so much about).

    What this issue IS about is essential fairness being extended to every citizen of this country. It's about human rights. It's about the 14th amendment of the constitution which guarantees American citizens equal protection under the law. And it's about the ideal of our founders that church and state not co-mingle. You wanna talk about contradictions? You've got about four or five of your own to address.

    I find it odd that neo-cons feel so adamant about keeping loving same-sex or non-heterosexual couples from getting married that they are willing to ignore the history of our founding and the American right to liberty they are often so eager to "defend". It rings awfully hollow to me right about now.

    The people keeping this from happening are simply old, in mind and/or body. You guys should start listening to the young people of this country because they will change this. Just not to resident conservative young person Bristol Palin who thinks this is "not a reason to change thousands of years of thinking" about marriage.

    I'm awfully glad our doctors and scientists don't think like she does...
    Last edited by TheExtraPoint; 05-12-2012 at 10:51 AM.




  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post
    You encapsulate the neo-conservative mindset so predictably with this quote. Insult those who view the world through a lens different than your own and ignore them, while in-so-doing ignoring the flailing contradictions you yourself represent.

    Why don't you explain to our readers how your movement's clamoring for smaller government isn't contradicted by your opposition to same sex marriage? Or how the legislating of a pregnant woman's private parts constitutes "less intrusive government"?

    You've been duped with words like "liberty" you can say but don't truly understand...

    If you don't support any human being's right to do whatever the **** they want so long as it isn't demonstrably infringing upon someone else, shame on you. Prisoners and convicts can get married in your America, but two peace-loving, law-abiding men or women cannot. It defies all logic.

    This isn't about whether or not government should be involved in marriage. That's either a cop-out or a distraction because it already is. It's an entirely separate conversation (though perhaps not without merit). It's also not so much about politics IMO. I view this as a politically neutral annoucement (one which by the way respects the state's rights neo-cons claim to care so much about).

    What this issue IS about is essential fairness being extended to every citizen of this country. It's about human rights. It's about the 14th amendment of the constitution which guarantees American citizens equal protection under the law. And it's about the ideal of our founders that church and state not co-mingle. You wanna talk about contradictions? You've got about four or five of your own to address.

    I find it odd that neo-cons feel so adamant about keeping loving same-sex or non-heterosexual couples from getting married that they are willing to ignore the history of our founding and the American right to liberty they are often so eager to "defend". It rings awfully hollow to me right about now.

    The people keeping this from happening are simply old, in mind and/or body. You guys should start listening to the young people of this country because they will change this. Just not to resident conservative young person Bristol Palin who thinks this is "not a reason to change thousands of years of thinking" about marriage.

    I'm awfully glad our doctors and scientists don't think like she does...
    The funny thing is that the country's darkest neocon, Dick Cheney, even supports gay marriage. The rest of the tooth fairy crowd will never come around to equal rights for all. They cloak their bigotry in religion, tradition and BIG GOVERNMENT myth.

    Since when has increasing "liberty" for individuals been a BIG GOVERNMENT problem?

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  9. #69
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    The funny thing is that the country's darkest neocon, Dick Cheney, even supports gay marriage. The rest of the tooth fairy crowd will never come around to equal rights for all. They cloak their bigotry in religion, tradition and BIG GOVERNMENT myth.

    Since when has increasing "liberty" for individuals been a BIG GOVERNMENT problem?

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
    The funny thing is you and The EP, both overlook the whole thread where everyone (but Trap) say the either want government out of marriage or religous marriages or ceremonies should be seprarte and everyone should be civilly unioned in the government eyes, to then and go off of stereotypical views of conservatives.

    You think everyone who is "conservative" or a republican is against gay marriage or civil unions, shame on you both for painting with such a broad brush.

    Fact is, the last two states that the CITIZENS voted to make the legal definition of marriage to a man and a woman, both voted for Obama in the last election.

    EDIT: BTW -Galen, to show how you are unable to grasp the concept of Liberty. Government can't extend Liberty to any citizen, government(s) can only infringe upon liberty. Liberty by definition is the ability to do as one pleases or govern themselves. That is why government getting out of marriage altogether is the answer.
    Last edited by NCRAVEN; 05-12-2012 at 11:55 AM.




  10. #70
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    Cogent and agreeable till you were instinctively forced to bee-line toward ridiculousness like a honeybee toward a daylily. Damn Liberal impulses.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheExtraPoint View Post

    The people keeping this from happening are simply old, in mind and/or body. You guys should start listening to the young people of this country because they will change this. Just not to resident conservative young person Bristol Palin who thinks this is "not a reason to change thousands of years of thinking" about marriage.

    I'm awfully glad our doctors and scientists don't think like she does...
    Senior Citizens account for roughly 12% of the population. Even assuming every one of them was conservative, pretty sure they weren't the only ones holding things back.


    Being what would be considered as a "young person" I'm embarrassed by the general way politics is not only viewed, but handled by the majority of young people. See OWS. A fundamental understanding of government and its role is receding further with each generation. The majority of young people from my experience prefer to receive their political updates via Stephen Colbert and John Stewart.

    It's always comical seeing a liberal attempt to encapsulate everything that embodies conservativism by using anything Palin. Her daughter could not be more irrelevant in the mind of conservatives, especially young conservatives.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




  11. #71

    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    The funny thing is that the country's darkest neocon, Dick Cheney, even supports gay marriage. The rest of the tooth fairy crowd will never come around to equal rights for all. They cloak their bigotry in religion, tradition and BIG GOVERNMENT myth.

    Since when has increasing "liberty" for individuals been a BIG GOVERNMENT problem?
    You know it's a cold day in the hell I don't believe in when Dick Cheney or even President Bush can be considered a moderate about ANYTHING.

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    The funny thing is you and The EP, both overlook the whole thread where everyone (but Trap) say the either want government out of marriage or religous marriages or ceremonies should be seprarte and everyone should be civilly unioned in the government eyes, to then and go off of stereotypical views of conservatives.
    I don't think I'm breaking any news here to let you know that your opinion is not that of the party you seem destined to vote for given your unrelenting opposition to the President. It is so nuanced and frankly irrelevant in the mainstream dialogue and in this discussion that it's almost not worht responding to, except to say that no one who supports same sex marriage believes that any religious leader or institution should be FORCED to marry someone who doesn't want to marry them. The notion that same sex couples would even WANT to be married by a priest for example who views their union as sinful is beyond ridiculous.

    You think everyone who is "conservative" or a republican is against gay marriage or civil unions, shame on you both for painting with such a broad brush.
    No. I think that conservative Republicans are against gay marriage. You are either for it or against it. No amount of nuance in your view of what marriage or unions should be will conceal your essential view of this subject. So far as I can tell, you are not for it given the circumstances as they stand today.

    Fact is, the last two states that the CITIZENS voted to make the legal definition of marriage to a man and a woman, both voted for Obama in the last election.
    Fact is, American citizens historically do not vote for civil rights. History in this regard is overwhelming. It usually requires government leadership to accomplish anything in the arena of civil rights. That is my chief criticism of the President in this instance; Not going far enough.

    EDIT: BTW -Galen, to show how you are unable to grasp the concept of Liberty. Government can't extend Liberty to any citizen, government(s) can only infringe upon liberty. Liberty by definition is the ability to do as one pleases or govern themselves. That is why government getting out of marriage altogether is the answer.
    I know this was addressed to Galen, but the reality is that government IS involved in marriage, and the conversation about whether or not same sex couples can by married by law is totally separate from the validity or construction of the institution of marriage itself as it relates to government or laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sirdowski View Post
    Senior Citizens account for roughly 12% of the population. Even assuming every one of them was conservative, pretty sure they weren't the only ones holding things back.
    That's why I said in mind AND/OR body. The viewpoint that rights should apply only to part of the law-abiding American populace is as arcane as the thousand-year-old basis for such logic.

    The majority of young people from my experience prefer to receive their political updates via Stephen Colbert and John Stewart.
    Is it such a bad thing if young people recognize the absurdity inherent in modern American governance and politics, and prefer to laugh at it rather than buy into the propaganda fomented by other pundits and networks? If you think they strictly interpret everything they hear without exercising some degree of intellectual curiosity, I beg to differ. Young people are however optimistic bordering on idealistic. And they are largely progressive, not conservative, particularly on this issue.

    It's always comical seeing a liberal attempt to encapsulate everything that embodies conservativism by using anything Palin. Her daughter could not be more irrelevant in the mind of conservatives, especially young conservatives.
    Maybe Bristol Palin isn't the bastion of all things conservative in your mind or that of conservatives in general (which is fair), but she's against gay marriage and therefor presumably on your side of this issue. So set aside my effort to highlight the absurdity of her specific viewpoint and respond to some of the contradictions I mentioned in my initial post.

    I appreciate the civility of your response, by the way. I think it's more than reasonable that people disagree about whether or not same sex marriage is right or moral. I simply perceive a difference between what is right or moral to an individual and the uniformity with which the laws of our country should approach all of our citizens. It's remarkably black and white in a world where policy is so often many shades of grey.
    Last edited by TheExtraPoint; 05-12-2012 at 01:59 PM.




  12. #72
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    I appreciate the civility of your response, by the way. I think it's more than reasonable that people disagree about whether or not same sex marriage is right or moral. I simply perceive a difference between what is right or moral to an individual and the uniformity with which the laws of our country should approach all of our citizens. It's remarkably black and white in a world where policy is so often many shades of grey.
    I agree on all accounts.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




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