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  1. #31
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?



    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    I think you need to read the thread. You have this inherent and incorrect belief that a governement official such as a judge can't "marry" someone but they can. In some states simple notaries can "marry' people. The only government intervention is the one that PROHIBITS marriage between gay people. By allowing gays to marry, you are actually LIFTING government intervention and removing government from the equation. For some reason you think government prohibiting marriage is lack of government intervention while government backing out and thus allowing all people to marry is somehow government getting involved. The ONLY reason government prevents gay people from marrying is because of the church so therefore the church and yes, the christian church in this country, is driving the government intervention that prohibits a behavior. No government intervention equals marriage for all.

    Your problem, just like every other connie on this thread, is that gay marriage isn't a conservative ideology so you have to find something wrong about it so you go to the typical "Big Scary Government getting involved is wrong" when really your problem is something else. What it is I don't know but there is no government intervention in allowing gays to marry.

    Government intervention in most cases restricts behavior and it is exactly what is happening here. No government intervention usually means freedoms such as the freedom to marry. This is why I joke you guys for your "liberty" fetish because you wouldn't know liberty if it hit you in the head. Restricting people from marrying who they want is a lack of liberty in this country.

    It is consistent with Obama's secular and intellectual approach to politics to come out in support of gay marriage. I have always had a problem with Obama stance on this but understood his quasi-support of it was simply politics. His full support of it, without getting into the legality of rights etc., was the perfect statement. This is something I could care less about how it polls and more about him doing what folks like myself see as the right thing to do. For many people, this is a transformative moment and I am happy for them. You guys can dawdle around with finding ways to condemn it. I would expect nothing less and good luck. Allowing people who love each to fully marry is what liberty is all about. Its been a great day.
    This is awesome. Galen is having a meltdown.

    I am aware judges can perform marriages. I've seen them do it. We ALL are talking about getting government out of the marriage business. Not having them extend a privilege/right that they have no business being involved in, in the first place. Or having marriage and civil unions be separate 6 of one half dozen of the other.

    But either with either approach, it's funny that you fathom "connies" don't have a problem with same-sex couples getting together, so you play dumb to the point we are trying to make and debate an argument no one is making. So sad...




  2. #32
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Give kudos to Gawker. They are calling the Prez's BS.

    They accurately point out the nuance in his stance. He's hardly supporting it as a "right". He's saying they "should" be allowed to marry. Galen pulled the trigger too soon.

    http://gawker.com/5909002/barack-oba...e-announcement
    Damn, they hit him pretty hard there.




  3. #33
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Not here. NPR said he made a conservative movement as America's evolution, well,
    evolves.



    http://newsbusters.org/




  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    This is awesome. Galen is having a meltdown.

    I am aware judges can perform marriages. I've seen them do it. We ALL are talking about getting government out of the marriage business. Not having them extend a privilege/right that they have no business being involved in, in the first place. Or having marriage and civil unions be separate 6 of one half dozen of the other.

    But either with either approach, it's funny that you fathom "connies" don't have a problem with same-sex couples getting together, so you play dumb to the point we are trying to make and debate an argument no one is making. So sad...
    You're too funny. You say you dont want the church to regulate marriage and you want the government out of marriage. So do we go to Target then and get married? Should we also get big scary government out of licensing drivers too? Fishing licenses? How about my license to practice? Should government have no power to license anything? Why is marriage any different? Governments regulate a ton of behaviors through licensure.
    Its okay for governments to license civil unions? Or is that too much government too? Or is that okay? As long as they don't use the word marriage?

    In the end your stance is no different than those who said "I am fine with that black person riding the bus as long as she sits on the back." You are making second class citizenry out of your own heterosexual privilege.

    There are a boatload of people, heterosexual and homosexual, who want to get married in a secular fashion. Most of my friends were married outside of the church. Believe it or not there are a lot of people who find it just a lot easier and honest to go down the the local courthouse, get married and move on.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2








  5. #35
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Your grasping for straws Galen. Back of the bus, really?

    My first stance, is that government have no business in marriage or unions at all. As a compromise, I agree with Spambot's stance, that if you want equality in the law, that government (i.e. judges) perform civil unions, anyone who wants a marriage ceremony can go to their church. And as I said and as others have pointed out there are churches and synagogues where same- sex couples can have a marriage ceremony.

    But in reality, Obama coming out and "support" of gay marriage is to get everyone talking about this. When we all know "It's the economy stupid"




  6. #36
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Let Galen have his moment. Seriously.

    But make no mistake, the President didn't want to make this statement. It was forced by Biden and came WAY too early.

    And even the Politico sees the pitfalls of this move. This move, while gets his base re-energized, puts him in serious jeopardy in the battle ground states:

    http://dyn.politico.com/printstory.c...0-1BA398B37248
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Your grasping for straws Galen. Back of the bus, really?

    My first stance, is that government have no business in marriage or unions at all. As a compromise, I agree with Spambot's stance, that if you want equality in the law, that government (i.e. judges) perform civil unions, anyone who wants a marriage ceremony can go to their church. And as I said and as others have pointed out there are churches and synagogues where same- sex couples can have a marriage ceremony.

    But in reality, Obama coming out and "support" of gay marriage is to get everyone talking about this. When we all know "It's the economy stupid"
    So you stated it then; church should regulate marriage. You could have agreed to that belief a dozen posts ago and i would have been done. I disagree that church should regulate marriage so therefore the government has and will continue to finalize any marriage or civil union through a license. A church can't issue a license. Marriage or civil unions affect commerce so therefore it becomes a government issue...marriage or civil union.

    It is very naive to think you can go to a church, get married and gain the benefits as in health insurance, death benefits, property rights without government involvement via a license recognizing the relationship. Ultimately every marriage is sanctioned through a state license whether a religious ceremony or a secular ceremony. You can't get away from that fact and still expect all the economic benefits that marriage brings. So since government must be involved in the relationship of marriage due to the commerce effect, it should not discriminate since we, at least, say we don't discriminate in the U.S.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2








  8. #38
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    So you stated it then; church should regulate marriage. You could have agreed to that belief a dozen posts ago and i would have been done. I disagree that church should regulate marriage so therefore the government has and will continue to finalize any marriage or civil union through a license. A church can't issue a license. Marriage or civil unions affect commerce so therefore it becomes a government issue...marriage or civil union.

    It is very naive to think you can go to a church, get married and gain the benefits as in health insurance, death benefits, property rights without government involvement via a license recognizing the relationship. Ultimately every marriage is sanctioned through a state license whether a religious ceremony or a secular ceremony. You can't get away from that fact and still expect all the economic benefits that marriage brings. So since government must be involved in the relationship of marriage due to the commerce effect, it should not discriminate since we, at least, say we don't discriminate in the U.S.

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
    I stated people go to churches for religious ceremony. I am not stating they regulate anything

    Ideally I wouldn't have any economic benefits attached to marriage or civil unions. So there would be no need to have government sanction anything if were up to me.

    The main issue you're having trouble getting past (that I don't even think you realize) is I don't see a need for government to be involved at all, and you can't help but find away for them to be. Which at the end of the day is pretty much what we debate on every issue anyway.




  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    I stated people go to churches for religious ceremony. I am not stating they regulate anything

    Ideally I wouldn't have any economic benefits attached to marriage or civil unions. So there would be no need to have government sanction anything if were up to me.

    The main issue you're having trouble getting past (that I don't even think you realize) is I don't see a need for government to be involved at all, and you can't help but find away for them to be. Which at the end of the day is pretty much what we debate on every issue anyway.
    Your box is getting smaller here. So why get married? Or "civilly unioned"?

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  10. #40
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Your box is getting smaller here. So why get married? Or "civilly unioned"?

    Sent from my DROID4 using Tapatalk 2
    Beats me... I'm neither. I don't need a piece of paper to tell me I'm faithful to the person I've chosen to be with for the past 15 years.




  11. #41
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Beats me... I'm neither. I don't need a piece of paper to tell me I'm faithful to the person I've chosen to be with for the past 15 years.
    Well, then you have no government in your business around your relationship. I was able to married on a golf course in a secular ceremony by an individual that was an important person to me growing up and soon gay people will get the arrangement they want.








  12. #42
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Well, then you have no government in your business around your relationship. I was able to married on a golf course in a secular ceremony by an individual that was an important person to me growing up and soon gay people will get the arrangement they want.
    And in certain states they already can.

    Obama coming out to say he thinks same-sex couples should be able to get married but thinks states have the right to decide doesn't change anything.

    I would applaud him for making a bold derision if it was for political purposes.




  13. #43
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    And in certain states they already can.

    Obama coming out to say he thinks same-sex couples should be able to get married but thinks states have the right to decide doesn't change anything.

    I would applaud him for making a bold derision if it was for political purposes.
    I haven't seen one account from anyone, right or left, who sees this has a pure political winner. Outside of being honest with his opinion, which everyone knew along that he was for marriage equality, and showing leadership for taking the right position, there is no obvious political win here. Again those who were going to vote for him because of his stance on marriage equality vs. that of Romney will remain in his corner while some of those who were going to vote for him because of other policy opinions may now not because of his verbilizing a marriage equality opinion.








  14. #44
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    I haven't seen one account from anyone, right or left, who sees this has a pure political winner. Outside of being honest with his opinion, which everyone knew along that he was for marriage equality, and showing leadership for taking the right position, there is no obvious political win here. Again those who were going to vote for him because of his stance on marriage equality vs. that of Romney will remain in his corner while some of those who were going to vote for him because of other policy opinions may now not because of his verbilizing a marriage equality opinion.
    So he was lying before this when he said he didn't believe in it or is he lying now?

    And the political winner or attempt is, trying to get the youth vote that is in support of gay marriage, distraction from the economy and jobs (or lack thereof) and fundraising, which I already linked to.




  15. #45
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    Re: Obama about to announce support of marriage rights for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    I haven't seen one account from anyone, right or left, who sees this has a pure political winner.
    Of course not because you're such a homer.

    Here's the liberal Wash Post saying what a political risk it was.

    As I posted above, Biden forced his hand along with the DEM machine.

    It's strictly political and as Darb said, he just lost the election. This link describes how
    risky.

    From your own MSNBC VIA NYT:
    ______________________________
    As George W. Bush demonstrated in 2004, when his campaign engineered initiatives against gay marriage in a series of swing states, opponents are far more likely to vote on these issues than supporters
    ________________________________

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47365293.../#.T6wldGjlZTU

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...sWDU_blog.html
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 05-10-2012 at 04:31 PM.




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