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Thread: The Offense

  1. #31

    Re: The Offense



    Quote Originally Posted by steelerhater View Post
    How'd they do in the playoffs?
    Marty Schottenheimer played a big part in that. Hence the term...Marty ball.




  2. #32

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by RavingMad View Post
    Marty Schottenheimer played a big part in that. Hence the term...Marty ball.
    No. Seriously, wherever cam cameron goes, his offense is average at best.

    Drew Brees didnt become elite until he left Cam. Philip Rivers wasnt elite until Cam left. He sucked as a head coach and has nothing but a predictable playbook.




  3. #33

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Carey View Post
    I cant help but to go back to the AFCC game...it wasnt so much the stats, i also factor in it being vs a bad defense. I took away a couple things from that game.

    Joe played about as cerebral as i've seen him play, he played fundamental sound and made sound decisions all game

    Cam called a balanced game but also a much less predictable one

    I think if those two things bring themselves into 2012 along with what input and stress on fundamentals Jim Caldwell will bring, improvements of Smith, Doss, Pitta and Dickson, and a entire true offseason im carefully optimistic this offense will take another step in the right direction.

    Most of it i think falls on Joe's shoulder's this year, I have an optimistic feeling he takes the next step
    Many of us go to that game and see that game as the indicator of what's to come. But keep in mind of the performance just a week earlier. Which is the rule. Which is the exception.




  4. #34
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    Re: The Offense

    I'm very optimistic about the offense this year. I think Joe will come out of the gate firing. He played very well during the postseason, and I think that will continue this season. Torrey and Boldin with be healthy, and Torrey is going into his second year with a full offseason. I think the chemistry between Joe and Torrey is only going to get better.




  5. #35

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    No. Seriously, wherever cam cameron goes, his offense is average at best.

    Drew Brees didnt become elite until he left Cam. Philip Rivers wasnt elite until Cam left. He sucked as a head coach and has nothing but a predictable playbook.
    Well, what do you call average. 2004 #3 OFFENSE in the NFL, 2005 #5 OFFENSE in the NFL, 2006 #1 OFFENSE in the NFL.




  6. #36

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    No. Seriously, wherever cam cameron goes, his offense is average at best.

    Drew Brees didnt become elite until he left Cam. Philip Rivers wasnt elite until Cam left. He sucked as a head coach and has nothing but a predictable playbook.
    They became elite because they hit their prime as quarterbacks. Not to mention the Chargers offensive line was average at best when Cam was there.




  7. #37

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by RavingMad View Post
    Many of us go to that game and see that game as the indicator of what's to come. But keep in mind of the performance just a week earlier. Which is the rule. Which is the exception.
    Very true, i think the biggest thing about that Houston game was when Joe is really pressured he gets happy feet and his footwork and fundamentals goes to hell. My hope is that Jim Caldwell eliminates the peaks and valleys in that regard. Also less predictability leads to less aggressive defenses.




  8. #38

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by RavingMad View Post
    Marty Schottenheimer played a big part in that. Hence the term...Marty ball.
    I used to think that way, but after watching Cameron's super conservative style and playing not to lose over the last few years, I'm starting to think that he had a big hand in "Marty Bal." Besides, does anyone really think that Cam Cameron does anything that Cam cameron doesn't want to do? Schottenheimer may not have had any control over him, much like Harbaugh has no control over him here.




  9. #39
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    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by RavingMad View Post
    Bird you are a true optimist, I'll give you that. But there is no one who has seen Streeter actually play, can see this guy running down field to cover punts or kicks. He is one of the least physical receivers you can find. Even Randy Moss was more physical than Streeter. No way this kid is going down field to hit and tackle someone. There is only one thing that points to him being a special teamer and that's the round he was selected in. If you have an admitted receiving need you don't realistically fill that need in the 6th round. Just my humble opinion.
    You may be right, and he might not be able to play special teams. That was just a sidebar to my point about WR development, which you did not address.

    I still contend that as fans we are not pirvy to everything that happens in practice, so we cannot accurately judge the development of a player. Based on that, it's pretty hard for me to write off a guy after one season (Doss). My concern is that there is a tendency of the Ravens' coaching staff to not give young players opportunities; instead they take the risk-adverse path and I think it is to the detriment of the overall system. The Ravens might actually have guys who can play, but are really never going to find out as long as they keep them on the bench and sign retreads year after year.

    I think Steve Biscotti alluded to as much in his year-end presser when he talked about getting the younger guys on he field earlier in their careers. Doss, Reed, Williams, Streeter - none of them may be the next Victor Cruz, but one of them might. My concern is that the Ravens will never venture into the unknown in order to find out. And, if that's the direction that Harbaugh wants to take the team, then he and Ozzie should get on the same page and just stop wasting draft picks on projects. They would be better served by packaging a few of those late picks, moving up to get the two or three better players who will actually see the field, and call it a day.




  10. #40
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    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by landspeed View Post
    It has nothing to do with the receivers

    Nothing.

    Nothing.

    Not the receivers

    Did I mention its not the receivers fault?

    Its our 1960's style offense that has no creativity.
    Really? Put this receiving corps on any other team with any other QB and they still aren't top 20 in the league.




  11. #41

    Re: The Offense

    Everywhere Cam Cameron goes, his offense looks the same: in the top 25% of the league in rushing attempts, rushing yards, and rushing touchdowns. In the bottom 40% of the league in passing attempts and passing yards. Right around league average in passing TDs and passing YPA. Very few interceptions.

    No matter who Cam Cameron has, this is his offense. He made Drew Brees into a skittish game manager that got ran out of San Diego because he was inconsistent game-to-game and overall not dominant--the same Drew Brees that has been the most consistently excellent and dominant QB of the last 5 years. So give up on Joe Flacco and our WRs ever looking any better than they have already looked under Cam. It isn't going to happen because that's not who Cam Cameron has ever been.

    The reality is that Cam Cameron's passing attack, and by extension his QBs, have always been dead average over the long haul. However you feel about why that is and what that means, it's a fact. The reality is that Cam Cameron's offense is fundamentally built on the run. Period, full stop. His offense has always been focused on the run and at its best when the run game was dominant. Every time Cam Cameron has had a top 10 offense, he has had a top 10 rushing attack, but the passing attack was all over the board and usually in the bottom half of the league.

    If we want to have a good offense next year, we need to be able to run the ball on anybody, anytime, and move the chains that way. We have to break off long runs and we have to move the pile in short yardage. We have to run well inside the tackles and outside the tackles. We have to run well with Ray Rice and we have to run well with Bernard Pierce and we have to run well with Anthony Allen. We just have to run well, and that's the beginning and the end of having a good Cam Cameron offense.

    Give up on this passing game being explosive and modern under Cam Cameron. It will never be that and it will never be elite, it will only be able to get the job done when necessary. If we can do that next year, and couple it with a monstrous and dominant running game, then our offense will win a lot of games. You might not like it, but that's what we have and who we are.




  12. #42
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    Re: The Offense

    A couple things of note in this thread:

    #1. Cam was able to produce top SCORING offenses in the NFL while the OC with San Diego. However, it's a bit more difficult to look at Cam's passing attack while in San Diego because even with Rivers and Brees (whom many contend are within the realm of top 5 QB's in the league, right?) it was above average, but not by much. So, was it Cam? Or was it having arguably the best RB in the league at the time? LaDainian Tomlinson is a potential HOF'er and Cam rode him all the way in San Diego. That's not a bad thing, per se, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Cam is a good or great coordinator. I mean, was Josh McDaniels a good/great offensive coordinator in New England before going to Denver? Or was it because he was riding the coat tails of a HOF quarterback? Denver's offense wasn't very good and neither was the Rams when he went there after Denver. I'm sure he'll be touted as a great coordinator though now that he's back in New England and has Tommi Brady throwing the ball around there.

    #2. The Ravens receivers have been terrible for a long time. It's not just since Cam got here. It's been A LONG time. Other teams saw the writing on the wall several years ago and began drafting explosive receivers and it's paid off for them in dividends (Packers for example with Jordy Nelson, James Jones, & Greg Jennings...Steelers with Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, & Antonio Brown). The Ravens have been a run-first offense for several years now [this is mostly due to Cam, but even before Cam it was this way] and they are and have been behind the curve of evolving with the rest of the league.

    #3. Within Cam's offense there is a fundamental variance when it comes to receiver production vs RB production. For example, look at the 2001 Chargers (OC was Norv Turner) vs the 2002 Chargers (OC was Cam Cameron).

    2001 Receiver stats:
    Conway - 71 receptions, 1125 yards, 6 TD's
    Graham - 52 receptions, 811 yards, 5 TD's

    2002 Receiver stats:
    Conway - 57 receptions, 852 yards, 5 TD's

    *Tomlinson's touches from 01 to 02 went up by 40 rushes and 20 receptions.

    Even two "Air Coryell" disciples [Cam & Norv] value the receiver completely differently. Conway's production dropped something like 26% under Cam in one season.

    In fact, only 2 players have had over 1000 yards in a single season under Cam in the last 10 years. Antonio Gates in 2005 and Derrick Mason in 2008 and 2009. That's it.
    Last edited by wickedsolo; 05-08-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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  13. #43

    Re: The Offense

    I'd like to see Tandon Doss get some reps at the #3 WR spot. He had the best hands in the draft last season and was pretty impressive in preseason.




  14. #44
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    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    A couple things of note in this thread:

    #1. Cam was able to produce top SCORING offenses in the NFL while the OC with San Diego. However, it's a bit more difficult to look at Cam's passing attack while in San Diego because even with Rivers and Brees (whom many contend are within the realm of top 5 QB's in the league, right?) it was above average, but not by much. So, was it Cam? Or was it having arguably the best RB in the league at the time? LaDainian Tomlinson is a potential HOF'er and Cam rode him all the way in San Diego. That's not a bad thing, per se, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Cam is a good or great coordinator. I mean, was Josh McDaniels a good/great offensive coordinator in New England before going to Denver? Or was it because he was riding the coat tails of a HOF quarterback? Denver's offense wasn't very good and neither was the Rams when he went there after Denver. I'm sure he'll be touted as a great coordinator though now that he's back in New England and has Tommi Brady throwing the ball around there.

    #2. The Ravens receivers have been terrible for a long time. It's not just since Cam got here. It's been A LONG time. Other teams saw the writing on the wall several years ago and began drafting explosive receivers and it's paid off for them in dividends (Packers for example with Jordy Nelson, James Jones, & Greg Jennings...Steelers with Mike Wallace, Emmanuel Sanders, & Antonio Brown). The Ravens have been a run-first offense for several years now [this is mostly due to Cam, but even before Cam it was this way] and they are and have been behind the curve of evolving with the rest of the league.

    #3. Within Cam's offense there is a fundamental variance when it comes to receiver production vs RB production. For example, look at the 2001 Chargers (OC was Norv Turner) vs the 2002 Chargers (OC was Cam Cameron).

    2001 Receiver stats:
    Conway - 71 receptions, 1125 yards, 6 TD's
    Graham - 52 receptions, 811 yards, 5 TD's

    2002 Receiver stats:
    Conway - 57 receptions, 852 yards, 5 TD's

    *Tomlinson's touches from 01 to 02 went up by 40 rushes and 20 receptions.

    Even two "Air Coryell" disciples [Cam & Norv] value the receiver completely differently. Conway's production dropped something like 26% under Cam in one season.

    In fact, only 2 players have had over 1000 yards in a single season under Cam in the last 10 years. Antonio Gates in 2005 and Derrick Mason in 2008 and 2009. That's it.
    That's an interesting analysis. It does make you wonder if Cam's system can even function in the new NFL since running the ball just doesn't carry the same weight as it did when he was with the Chargers.

    It kills me to see Flacco waste time on so many play-action fakes when he drops back. Back in the 80's and early 90's most offenses seemed to do that. Those were the only ways that QBs like Phil Simms, Boomer Esiason and Joe Theisman could get 1 on 1 matchups in a 2 receiver offenses. It worked because stopping the run was the #1 priority of every defense. Now it just wastes time. Cam should at least cut the amount of play action calls in half.
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  15. #45
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    Re: The Offense

    Cameron has either refused, or he doesnt have the capacity to adapt his game to the modern nfl. His offense is a dinasour and cost us homefield advantage last year (jax,sea). The fact that he still has a job in bmore tells me that the entire organization, from ownership on down, is pretty far behind the curve on the offensive side of the ball. Its been that way since Vinnie left. They have had drafted and developed a few great RB's, but every other offensive position has been pretty hit or miss. Except WR which has pretty much been all misses.




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