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Thread: The Offense

  1. #16
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    Re: The Offense



    I knew this would turn into another cam bashing thread.

    How about the Oline; they have to hold the protection to allow patterns to develop or its more dump offs and quick slants/outs
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  2. #17
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    Re: The Offense

    RavingMad,

    We can touch base with every area of the passing offense. We can start with the QB. Joe Flacco can still make improvements to his game. He can do a better job of holding onto the football in the pocket, to limit the fumbles. He can also try to use his legs more.

    At the end of the day, though, Joe has shown that when the game is on the line, he can make the throws. More often than not, the past two to three years, the WRs have shown that they have struggled to catch them.

    Look at the last four visits to Hines Field. In 2011, Joe Flacco made the throw that would have won the game, despite being under pressure. Torrey admittedly slowed up on the route, because he didn't think Flacco would get the ball out there. He saw that Flacco was under pressure and was going to rotate back to the ball, but suddenly saw that the ball was in the air. I can't knock Torrey for that. However, he should have made the catch. He did not make the catch, and Joe had to make the throw again. On the other side of the field, the second time. Torrey caught it and the Ravens won.

    In the playoffs, Joe did not have a great game overall. He was late on some of his timing routes to Mason and had a bad interception, forcing a throw into double coverage. However, he showed the resiliency to help the offense recover from losing the deficit. There are plenty of QBs who would have completely crumbled after that. However, Joe kept his poise. He puts a throw between the hair and a LB that only Boldin could catch, but Boldin let it bounce off of his chest. That would have given the Ravens the lead, and there last offensive drive would have been for a winning field goal, rather than a TD. On that final drive, Flacco delivered a clutch fourth and long pass to T.J. Houshmandzadeh, who dropped it.

    During the regular season that year, Joe Flacco threw a pass to T.J. Houshmandzadeh, which was caught. The Ravens won the game.

    The year before, the Ravens were locked into another tight game with the Steelers. Joe Flacco had a decent game. Despite throwing an early interception he'd thrown two TDs and was driving to throw the third, which would have all, but clinched victory. He delivers the pass in the end zone to Derrick Mason, who lets it bounce off of his facemask. The Ravens lose.

    So, when I look at him, I see a young QB, with plenty of room to grow, but who has shown that he is ready to make the throws to get this team over the top.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  3. #18
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    Re: The Offense

    When I look at Cam Cameron, I cannot completely blast the man, because I have not seen him get the opportunity to work with quality pieces for his system and I get the feeling that he is following orders.

    To their credit they have tried to get those pieces for Cameron. However, the only one that seems to be a legitimate prospect is Torrey Smith. Ed Dickson was supposed to be that guy at TE, but his drops were worse than Torrey's. Lee Evans was supposed to start opposite Boldin, before eventually pairing with Torrey, moving Boldin to the slot. Evans got hurt and disappointed in the conference championship.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  4. #19
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    Re: The Offense

    With that in mind, I think the WRs are the main issue. There were plenty of times where Cameron called good plays on third down, late in games, to keep drives going, only to see someone drop and pass with the team having to punt the ball away. Ed Dickson was the main culprit.

    I think that the passing will improve, naturally, with the growth of the players. If Joe Flacco continues to improve, that would be great. He should really be able to get some reps with the WRs this off-season, compared to last. Dennis Pitta should be the starter. That should help cut down on the dropped passes. Torrey has such a high ceiling that I am just having a difficult time imagining a situation where he does not improve. If the third WR ends up being Doss, what we know about him is that he does not drop the ball either.

    Actually, another poster brought up a great point about Doss. I remember seeing Doss do a much better job of catching the ball, last preseason, than Torrey. We were actually debating whether or not Doss should see more of the field, because it didn't seem to be clicking for Torrey. Suddenly, Lee Evans is acquired and Doss goes down the depth chart. The St. Louis game arrives after Evans is deactivated and Torrey scores three TDs. Later in the game, it looked like Doss would score his first, but he stumbles out of his cut and can't catch up to the ball. The Ravens had to settle for a field goal.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  5. #20

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    I knew this would turn into another cam bashing thread.

    How about the Oline; they have to hold the protection to allow patterns to develop or its more dump offs and quick slants/outs
    It wouldn't be a thread about the Ravens offense without that.
    Lardarius "The predator" Webb





  6. #21

    Re: The Offense

    Great points guys. My intentions was to keep this about the receivers. Flacco like EX said has room for growth but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and put this more on the personnel around him.

    No one, minus ignorance or bias can ignore the success Cam had as an OC with San Diego. His detractors point to the personnel for San Diego's success. So deduction tells me the scheme can be very successful with the right personnel. Especially since variations of that scheme are still successful today.

    From reading some your responses I'm more optimistic about the emergence of Pitta and Dickinson working underneath. I still have serious questions and doubts about Doss.




  7. #22

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    The last 4 QBs Cameron worked with prior to Flacco went from rookies to the Pro Bowl (Gus Frerotte, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers) or First Team All-American (Antwaan Randle El), under Cameron. His last three offenses in San Diego were top 5 in the league in scoring (#3, #5, #1).

    That's "what success". Brees & Rivers made their first Pro Bowls under Cameron, not after he left.

    It's also worth remembering that we thought he was awesome in 2008, when we had a rookie QB and a 3-headed RB.

    Did you know that the most productive offense in Ravens history (highest points per game) was a tie between 2009 and 2003? In both years we scored 391 points (24.4 per game). Our OC in 2009 was Cam Cameron, in 2003 it was Matt Cavanaugh. Our next two highest-scoring years were 385 points (in 2008) and 378 points (in 2011), both Cameron years. So Cameron has been our offensive coordinator in the highest-scoring season we've ever had (2009), and 3 of our top 4 seasons, and 5 of our top 6.
    Code:
    Year	Pts	PPG	OC
    2009	391	24.4	Cameron
    2003	391	24.4	Cavanaugh
    2008	385	24.1	Cameron
    2011	378	23.6	Cameron
    1996	371	23.2	Marchibroda
    2010	357	22.3	Cameron
    2006	353	22.1	Fassel
    2000	333	20.8	Cavanaugh
    1997	326	20.4	Marchibroda
    1999	324	20.3	Cavanaugh
    2004	317	19.8	Cavanaugh
    2002	316	19.8	Cavanaugh
    2001	303	18.9	Cavanaugh
    2007	275	17.2	Billick
    1998	269	16.8	Marchibroda
    2005	265	16.6	Fassel
    We're in the middle of the best offensive era in Ravens history. But because we don't know what good offense looks like, we don't believe it.
    Good info. It seems many believe his year with the Dolphins was his first year in the NFL.
    Last edited by HoustonRaven; 05-07-2012 at 08:31 PM.




  8. #23

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    The one thing that Ricky had going for him was that he was always fresh. That should translate well to whoever the new back-up is. However, Ricky was always decisive and stuck to the play. Rice does not always do that and there is no guarantee that the younger players will either.

    If anything, we should expect the holes to be there.
    Worried about that left side to be honest with you. McKinnie played so much better with Grubbs vs Gurode. I hope the adjustment to a new LG is made and those holes are still there.




  9. #24

    Re: The Offense

    Last year Boldin was playing hurt, Smith was a rookie, also hurt, both needed surgury. Evans was hurt almost all year long. Dickson and Pitta were 1st time regulars. Just a healthy start should upgrade the WR unit. It was pretty much a mess last year due to all the injuries and inexperience. The OL was also a lot less than 100% after looking pretty good and potentially dominant week 1.

    Overall last year the word I would use to describe the O is inconsistant. Sometimes they were overpowering and clutch in big games, other times they looked terrible vs inferior teams. This year if they can not have the horrible offensive games and still produce the clutch drives and good games, they should be a top 10 O.







  10. #25

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    How do you know this? He might be crap, but the guy hasn't even stepped onto the practice field with the Ravens yet. Maybe he didn't play special teams because he wasn't asked to do so in college. That does not mean he cannot play them. This is a bad assumption - even for a 6th round project.


    Maybe. Maybe not.

    Look at the following list of WRs in the league. Without exception every one of them saw his statistics rise dramatically (catches and yards) within one or two years of starting out. The common thread between them is that each one saw his situation/circumstances change, and took full advantage of that. I'm not saying any WR currently on the Ravens will end up like any of these guys, but maybe if one is given the opportunity he will.

    Steve Smith - 10 rec/154 yds to 88 rec/1,110 yds
    Sidney Rice - 31 rec/396 yds to 83 rec/1,312 yds
    Jordy Nelson- 22 rec/320 yds to 68 rec/1,263 yds
    Wes Welker - 29 rec/434 yds to 112 rec/1,175 yds
    Victory Cruz - 0 rec (3 games dressed) to 82 rec/1536 yds
    Steve Breaston - 8 rec/92 yds to 77 rec/1006 yds

    So, I am not at all convinced that the Ravens won't improve the passing attack this fall, and that the players to do it are already under contract. You may be right, but we really don't know that answer; everything is just a guess. The bigger issue seems to be the coaching staff's ability to maximize the strengths of the players they have and their willingness to use them and trust their skills. No one gets any experience without being given the opportunity to contribute.
    Bird you are a true optimist, I'll give you that. But there is no one who has seen Streeter actually play, can see this guy running down field to cover punts or kicks. He is one of the least physical receivers you can find. Even Randy Moss was more physical than Streeter. No way this kid is going down field to hit and tackle someone. There is only one thing that points to him being a special teamer and that's the round he was selected in. If you have an admitted receiving need you don't realistically fill that need in the 6th round. Just my humble opinion.




  11. #26

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    The last 4 QBs Cameron worked with prior to Flacco went from rookies to the Pro Bowl (Gus Frerotte, Drew Brees, Philip Rivers) or First Team All-American (Antwaan Randle El), under Cameron. His last three offenses in San Diego were top 5 in the league in scoring (#3, #5, #1).

    That's "what success". Brees & Rivers made their first Pro Bowls under Cameron, not after he left.

    It's also worth remembering that we thought he was awesome in 2008, when we had a rookie QB and a 3-headed RB.

    Did you know that the most productive offense in Ravens history (highest points per game) was a tie between 2009 and 2003? In both years we scored 391 points (24.4 per game). Our OC in 2009 was Cam Cameron, in 2003 it was Matt Cavanaugh. Our next two highest-scoring years were 385 points (in 2008) and 378 points (in 2011), both Cameron years. So Cameron has been our offensive coordinator in the highest-scoring season we've ever had (2009), and 3 of our top 4 seasons, and 5 of our top 6.
    Code:
    Year	Pts	PPG	OC
    2009	391	24.4	Cameron
    2003	391	24.4	Cavanaugh
    2008	385	24.1	Cameron
    2011	378	23.6	Cameron
    1996	371	23.2	Marchibroda
    2010	357	22.3	Cameron
    2006	353	22.1	Fassel
    2000	333	20.8	Cavanaugh
    1997	326	20.4	Marchibroda
    1999	324	20.3	Cavanaugh
    2004	317	19.8	Cavanaugh
    2002	316	19.8	Cavanaugh
    2001	303	18.9	Cavanaugh
    2007	275	17.2	Billick
    1998	269	16.8	Marchibroda
    2005	265	16.6	Fassel
    We're in the middle of the best offensive era in Ravens history. But because we don't know what good offense looks like, we don't believe it.
    As for his San Diego offense, it was certainly great overall, but the running game and LT were most of the reason. The passing game was always average, check the rankings.

    And as for your Ravens' data, it is very misleading because it doesn't include the fact that league scoring has gone up over time. Marchibroda's (1996) 23.2 per game ranked 6th in points and 3rd in yards, whereas Cameron's (2009) 24.4 ranked 9th in points and 13th in yards. And as for points, I am fairly certain they include defensive/ST TDs, which I believe was 1 in 1996 to 4 in 2009, or 1.3 extra pts per game for 2009 that had nothing to do with the offense. 1996's team ranks 4th in scoring if they get the extra 3 D/ST TDs.

    That said, our offense is definitely a bit better than it has been since we had Vinny (and no defense). But it is still average, especially the passing game which is even more important now than a decade ago.
    Last edited by HoustonRaven; 05-07-2012 at 08:31 PM.




  12. #27

    Re: The Offense

    I don't understand why Torrey is even being listed as an issue with the offense. As a rookie, he led the team in receiving TD's, more than doubling Boldin's total output. He didn't even start until Week 3, had no drops the last 5-6 games in the season, and had a huge TD against the Pat's in the AFC Championship. He's exactly what the offense needs, a guy with game-breaking ability. If anything, we need another dynamic WR.




  13. #28

    Re: The Offense

    I cant help but to go back to the AFCC game...it wasnt so much the stats, i also factor in it being vs a bad defense. I took away a couple things from that game.

    Joe played about as cerebral as i've seen him play, he played fundamental sound and made sound decisions all game

    Cam called a balanced game but also a much less predictable one

    I think if those two things bring themselves into 2012 along with what input and stress on fundamentals Jim Caldwell will bring, improvements of Smith, Doss, Pitta and Dickson, and a entire true offseason im carefully optimistic this offense will take another step in the right direction.

    Most of it i think falls on Joe's shoulder's this year, I have an optimistic feeling he takes the next step




  14. #29

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by RavingMad View Post
    Great points guys. My intentions was to keep this about the receivers. Flacco like EX said has room for growth but I will give him the benefit of the doubt and put this more on the personnel around him.

    No one, minus ignorance or bias can ignore the success Cam had as an OC with San Diego. His detractors point to the personnel for San Diego's success. So deduction tells me the scheme can be very successful with the right personnel. Especially since variations of that scheme are still successful today.

    From reading some your responses I'm more optimistic about the emergence of Pitta and Dickinson working underneath. I still have serious questions and doubts about Doss.
    How'd they do in the playoffs?




  15. #30

    Re: The Offense

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    I knew this would turn into another cam bashing thread.

    How about the Oline; they have to hold the protection to allow patterns to develop or its more dump offs and quick slants/outs
    Absolutely a concern. Then again, when you're having trouble holding blocks on the offensive line and all your receivers are running deep routes, who is ultimately to blame?




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