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  1. #16
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?



    Quote Originally Posted by duffybr View Post
    DeCosta said alot of their guys were coming off the board and they had to improvise some. Maybe these 2 were improvisees
    That's what I think happened. More players from their board were getting taken than had been in the past. DeCosta said it was the most of any draft. Suddenly they get round 4 and players they thought might be taken in round 6 are now at the top of their board. In that case you're not going to abandon all your research and just pick guys who you consider to be lesser players. You stick to the order you created and pick the guys at the top of the list.
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  2. #17
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    Remember, the 4th round picks were 98 and 130 (an untradable comp ppick) and the next pick was also untradable (5th round comp, #169). If the Ravens didn't take Gradkowski with #98 it was likely they wouldn't get him at all. From that perspective he wasn't a reach.

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  3. #18
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenScallywag View Post
    Ok, this was a weird draft for me...I didn't do a ton of research before hand and I wasn't around for...ANY of the draft really (just got the family back from Disney last week).

    Let me start by saying I liked our draft as a Solid, Not Spectacular one. Upshaw was the only "exciting" pick. Everything else was just good value to plug holes. Most sites seem to say KO should be able to start at OG and Pierce was a good RB choice. Streeter was a good sleeper pick, our 7th round DT was kind've a throwaway as most 7th rounders are, and the Cal Poly CB should be a good returner...

    But Thompson and Gradkowski, our Round 4 picks, are being labeled among the big reaches by DraftCountdown.com. I knew Gradkowski was a bit of a reach...heck, GRADKOWSKI HIMSELF was taken back by the early pick, he wasn't even paying attention to the draft yet (http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...ext%7CHome%7Cs). Didn't think Thompson was a big reach, but he was taken before Iloka, who was widely considered the 2nd best FS in the draft.

    So, what do people think of these two? I've seen good scouting reports on both which say that Gradkowski just needs seasoning at C but could be a starter in time, while Thompson is listed as a good rangy ST who could become a serviceable starter in time. But I've also seen that Gradkowski was graded as a 6th or 7th rounder, while Thompson was graded around 6th round.

    Do you think we reached for these two need picks?
    No, Seattle taking Bruce Irvin in round 1 was a reach. San Francisco taking arguably the 7th or 8th best receiver in round 1 when only the top 3 were off the board is probably a reach. But, it all comes down to the team, who they like, who they value, and where they're picking. A reach for one team may be a good value pick for another.

    I'll say this about George Iloka though. He's not a free safety at all. Not even close. He's big, no doubt, but he doesn't have the coverage skills and quickness to really be an effective free safety. Christian Thompson may be a small school guy, but keep in mind he was a transfer from Auburn and played in the SEC. He's going to contribute on ST's right away and the upside is there for him to replace Ed Reed as the starting FS in a year or two. That's not something Iloka could have done. The only way I see Iloka sticking in this league is if he puts on about 10-15lbs and drops down to OLB in a cover-2 scheme. He might be able to stick as an "in the box" strong safety. He's already 6'3" 225lbs...bump him up to 235lbs and put him at OLB because he doesn't have the fluidness and range to play deep safety. We see this every year with big safeties. As fans we're enamored with them because they just look like men amongst boys out there. It happened with Taylor Mays (6'3" 230lbs), Robert Sands (6'4" 215lbs), and Aaron Rouse (6'3" 225lbs).
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  4. #19

    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Florio said it best.

    "Reaches" is a media term, used by people who can't wrap their head around the fact their mock draft board got blowed the eff up.
    thats funny.

    I think alienbird nailed it. We didnt have ammo to move around in the 4th and 5th so we had to take him at 98, rightfully so, as a run on Cs came right after. Some teams, us apparently, had him as one of, if not the best C prospect. In 3 years when we know the true outcome and they regrade this draft, maybe hes valued a first or second rounder... then its not a reach but a steal.
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  5. #20
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    When Pittsburgh, Tennessee, and the Colts all rate him as the best center in the draft it's not a reach to get him in the 4th round. At the end of the day, I'm trusting the Ravens board over media websites who think they are "draft experts". It's like the Bruce Irvin pick, what people fail to realise, is that the Jets even rang the Seahawks after that pick to curse them out. We may watch clips on youtube, or watch them on Sturday nights during the season, but at the end of the day teams have coaches tape of these players and know way more than any of us or any draft expert know about them.
    I keep seeing reference to this but I haven't seen anyone back it up. All I saw was a tweet that said 'some good teams' liked him. Is there anything more?
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  6. #21
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    I keep seeing reference to this but I haven't seen anyone back it up. All I saw was a tweet that said 'some good teams' liked him. Is there anything more?
    49ers interest:

    General manager Trent Baalke got visibly upset in the 49ers' war room when the Ravens drafted Delaware guard Gino Gradkowski with the 98th overall pick. It could be that Baalke and Jim Harbaugh were targeting him with the 97th pick, and thought he would still be around for the 103rd pick, which they traded down to with the Dolphins. http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-s...75&feedID=2800

    ESPN postdraft blog:

    BEST VALUE: C-G Gino Gradkowski, Delaware. He received a third-round grade by some teams and slipped into the early part of the fourth round. http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth




  7. #22
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by alien bird View Post
    49ers interest:

    General manager Trent Baalke got visibly upset in the 49ers' war room when the Ravens drafted Delaware guard Gino Gradkowski with the 98th overall pick. It could be that Baalke and Jim Harbaugh were targeting him with the 97th pick, and thought he would still be around for the 103rd pick, which they traded down to with the Dolphins. http://www.csnbayarea.com/football-s...75&feedID=2800

    ESPN postdraft blog:

    BEST VALUE: C-G Gino Gradkowski, Delaware. He received a third-round grade by some teams and slipped into the early part of the fourth round. http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth
    That's good info but I don't see any relation to claiming that TN, Pitt, and Indy had him rated as their top center. I'm happy with the pick just think there are some claims out there that I haven't seen substantiated.
    World Domination 3 Points at a Time!




  8. #23
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by HoustonRaven View Post
    Florio said it best.

    "Reaches" is a media term, used by people who can't wrap their head around the fact their mock draft board got blowed the eff up.
    Quote Originally Posted by B-more Ravor View Post
    to the

    They interviewed DeCosta on the Fan this morning and he basically confirmed the notion that their board was getting blown up. He said that the players they liked were all getting picked and everyone ahead of them seemed to share the same needs as they did.

    He later coupled that idea to his answer to another question about taking players from smaller schools. He said that they had asked their scouts to dig deeper on small school guys (ie, Delaware, S. Carolina State, Cal Poly) because the league as a whole is getting better at scouting, making it harder to target "gems", and therefore forcing them to go to new extremes to find players. He used the metaphor of the main talent pool drying up this year, so they were forced to go to the shallower waters to find players.

    He also noted that the players they have had success with from small schools often were recruited by bigger schools and transferred for one reason or another to a smaller school -- notably Flacco (Pitt) and Webb (So. Miss). This is the case with a couple of the small school guys they selected this year: Gradkowski (UWV) and Thompson (Auburn).

    DeCosta admitted that they didn't know where to grade Gradkowski -- they thought somewhere in the fourth or fifth round. But they felt nervous about losing him, and when other players they liked came off the board, they went ahead and used the pick on a player they liked. So from that sense, maybe you can call it a reach.

    Look, once a player has been in the league for a couple years no one ever brings up the concept of whether he should have gone ten or fifteen picks lower in the draft. If Gradkowski becomes a fourth rounder who goes on to start for the team for a number of years, like Jarrett Johnson, no one will ever look back and say, "yeah, but they could have waited until the fifth round back in 2012 to take him."

    And if he becomes a small-school, fourth-round offensive lineman who never amounts to anything, like David Hale, then no one will ever come back and say he was a reach--"they should have drafted him in the fifth or sixth round." No, he'll just be another fourth round player they missed on.

    That's why Florio is right that the idea of "reach" is a little overused.

    That said, if the team could have traded back and nabbed him fifteen picks later, and gotten an extra sixth rounder for their troubles (or if they could have stayed at the end of the third round to get Pierce, and kept that fifth round selection) then from that perspective they "overspent" on the picks. I think that is a more applicable term than "reach."




  9. #24
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by RavenScallywag View Post
    Ok, this was a weird draft for me...I didn't do a ton of research before hand and I wasn't around for...ANY of the draft really (just got the family back from Disney last week).

    Let me start by saying I liked our draft as a Solid, Not Spectacular one. Upshaw was the only "exciting" pick. Everything else was just good value to plug holes. Most sites seem to say KO should be able to start at OG and Pierce was a good RB choice. Streeter was a good sleeper pick, our 7th round DT was kind've a throwaway as most 7th rounders are, and the Cal Poly CB should be a good returner...

    But Thompson and Gradkowski, our Round 4 picks, are being labeled among the big reaches by DraftCountdown.com. I knew Gradkowski was a bit of a reach...heck, GRADKOWSKI HIMSELF was taken back by the early pick, he wasn't even paying attention to the draft yet (http://www.delawareonline.com/articl...ext%7CHome%7Cs). Didn't think Thompson was a big reach, but he was taken before Iloka, who was widely considered the 2nd best FS in the draft.

    So, what do people think of these two? I've seen good scouting reports on both which say that Gradkowski just needs seasoning at C but could be a starter in time, while Thompson is listed as a good rangy ST who could become a serviceable starter in time. But I've also seen that Gradkowski was graded as a 6th or 7th rounder, while Thompson was graded around 6th round.

    Do you think we reached for these two need picks?
    From rotoworld:

    According to CSN Bay Area's Matt Maiocco, 49ers GM Trent Baalke had a "noticeable reaction" in the draft room when the Ravens grabbed G/C Gino Gradkowski early in the fourth round after San Francisco had traded back.
    Clearly targeting Gradkowski himself, Baalke traded back again to select Joe Looney after the Ravens snagged Bruce's brother.
    Labeling Gradkowski "athletic and nasty," former Ravens and Eagles scout Daniel Jeremiah predicts the fourth-rounder will be the eventual starting center in Baltimore.
    Seems like the 49ers didn't think Gradkowski in the 4th was too bad.

    OOPS: didn't see above post saying the same thing.




  10. #25
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    On Iloka from http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/1621494

    He is an explosive athlete, but lacks quick change-of-direction that would make him special.
    {and}
    Weaknesses: Has a lean, narrow frame and needs to get stronger -- doesn't have the body type to get too much bigger with limited growth potential. Has tense ankles and hips with choppy footwork when attempting to redirect and doesn't always look natural changing directions. Tends to play leggy and needs to tighten his angles in pursuit. Will slide off tackle attempts at times and needs to show better tackling technique to consistently finish. Wasn't overly productive and never led the team in tackles, putting together an average senior season with 1 pass break-up and zero interceptions in 2011. Has questionable on-field attitude and needs to play more disciplined and calm -- taken out of games in the past by coaching staff for minor scuffles and poor sportsmanship (has also gotten into a few shouting matches with head coach Chris Peterson after being removed from the game).
    Ravens had Thompson rated higher, may not even had Iloka in their 150. Bengals took him at 167? should tell us something that it was the Bengals that took him 37 picks later.
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  11. #26

    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Bottom line is the draft didn't go the way the brass wanted and more unsettling to me....expected. They felt forced to draft players earlier than planned. IMO (via presser and audio) they were surprised by the flow of the draft. Streeter is such a project, it's insulting to the word "project". A hole/need that THEY said needed to be addressed is still there.




  12. #27
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    I'll admit that I wasn't happy when both Gradkowski and Thompson was first drafted.

    Looking back on it now, I'm a lot more okay with both picks, and I think I actually like the Gradkowski pick. You have a guy who can start this year if Birk can't stay healthy and also seems capable of starting at OG if we needed him to replace Yanda or KO. My initial irritation with taking him was because guys like Nick Toon and the like were still on the board and I really wanted one of those WRs. Now that the dust has settled, having GG in camp definitely makes us stronger on a short-term basis than a rookie WR (often hit or miss).

    I'm still not sold on the Christian Thompson pick, but the Ravens have done an incredibly good job of drafting Safeties the last decade, so I'm willing to trust their judgement.




  13. #28
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by LukeDaniel View Post
    I'll admit that I wasn't happy when both Gradkowski and Thompson was first drafted.

    Looking back on it now, I'm a lot more okay with both picks, and I think I actually like the Gradkowski pick. You have a guy who can start this year if Birk can't stay healthy and also seems capable of starting at OG if we needed him to replace Yanda or KO. My initial irritation with taking him was because guys like Nick Toon and the like were still on the board and I really wanted one of those WRs. Now that the dust has settled, having GG in camp definitely makes us stronger on a short-term basis than a rookie WR (often hit or miss).

    I'm still not sold on the Christian Thompson pick, but the Ravens have done an incredibly good job of drafting Safeties the last decade, so I'm willing to trust their judgement.
    I agree with pretty much everything you're saying.

    The Ravens brass did come out and say prior to the draft that this wasn't going to be a sexy draft and a lot of their picks were going to be about depth and the future. So...take that for what it's worth. They certainly weren't lying.
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  14. #29
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Word has it that the 49ers where targeting Gradkowski, and where disappointed when the Ravens took him, accord to Matt Maiocco of CSN Bay Area.

    Sorry someone already posted it.
    Last edited by leachisabeast; 05-05-2012 at 07:49 PM. Reason: Beaten to it.




  15. #30
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    Re: Round 4 - Reaches?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravenswintitle View Post
    I keep seeing reference to this but I haven't seen anyone back it up. All I saw was a tweet that said 'some good teams' liked him. Is there anything more?
    I back it up.
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