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  1. #46
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception



    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Although Obama will today announce another manner in which to ensure all women equal access to healthcare, it won't be because of a conflict with the constitution. I think he is doing this the correct way as birth control is still a sensitive issue to some, a small but loud minority, and it is not worth the political capital he would expend here.

    It looks like the administration was basing the legality of thier initial decision on a Scalia precedent from 1990:


    “One thing I think is crystal clear — there is no First Amendment violation by this law,” Adam Winkler, a constitutional law professor at UCLA, told TPM. “The Supreme Court was very clear in a case called Employment Division v. Smith, written by none other than Antonin Scalia, that religious believers and institutions are not entitled to an exemption from generally applicable laws.”

    The Reagan-appointed conservative justice authored the majority opinion in the 1990 decision Employment Division v. Smith, a critical precedent to the birth control case, decreeing that religious liberty is insufficient grounds for being exempt from laws. The Supreme Court said Oregon may deny unemployment benefits to people who were fired for smoking peyote as part of a religious tradition, seeing as the drug was illegal in the state.

    “To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself,” wrote Scalia, an avowed Catholic and social conservative, quoting from an ages old Supreme Court decision and giving it new life. His opinion was cosigned by four other justices.
    Got a link instead of just some selected quotes?




  2. #47
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    To copy Galen's technique, here's a quote from the LA TIMES and backs
    up my previous post after countering Galen's Scalia quote:


    According to the Los Angeles Times, the Scalia/Thomas duo hit a Federalist Society dinner to pretend to listen to what other people think about the Obamacare law before they eventually and inevitably knock it down.

    From the LA Times:

    Clement’s law firm, Bancroft PLLC, was one of almost two dozen firms that helped sponsor the annual dinner of the Federalist Society, a longstanding group dedicated to advocating conservative legal principles. Another firm that sponsored the dinner, Jones Day, represents one of the trade associations that challenged the law, the National Federation of Independent Business.

    Another sponsor was pharmaceutical giant Pfizer Inc, which has an enormous financial stake in the outcome of the litigation. The dinner was held at a Washington hotel hours after the court’s conference over the case. In attendance was, among others, Mitch McConnell, the Senate’s top Republican and an avowed opponent of the healthcare law.

    The featured guests at the dinner? Scalia and Thomas.




  3. #48
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Never mind, I found it Galen. And now I know why you didn't include the link. Basically the law professor goes on to say... it ain't over.

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...ntrol-rule.php

    Here is the rest of the article:
    Thanks to this decision more than any other, Winkler said there’s no reason to believe the constitutional argument against the rule has any legs. And while the high court later ruled to create a ministerial exception in anti-discrimination laws (to shield the Church from liability in forbidding women to become priests), it has not altered the Smith precedent insofar as it applies to the birth control rule. “So it would seem extremely difficult” for the courts to overturn it on that basis, Winkler posited. “I don’t think there’s any real argument.”

    Critics have posited that the application of drugs in Smith was a motivating factor in the decisions of Scalia and the other conservative justices. “Sure, I think there’s something to that argument,” Winkler said. But ‘stare decisis’ (court-speak for judicial precedent) applies all the same. And it wouldn’t even be the first time Scalia has handed down a decision that the Obama White House can use against conservatives.

    Sadly for liberals, though, the legal basis for a challenge doesn’t end there. Apart from the First Amendment option, there’s another, more substantial judicial route that opponents of the birth control rule can take. After Smith was handed down, Congress passed a law to push back on the ruling, which Winkler said “attempts to provide more protection for religion than the Supreme Court was willing to give.”

    The 1993 Religious Freedom Restoration Act said any law that burdens religious freedom must satisfy strict scrutiny. The Supreme Court later said it cannot apply to states (which is why the 28 states that already have the birth control rule the White House wants to take nationwide are in the clear), but held that those requirements shall apply to federal laws. First, the law may not be a “substantial burden” and can only be an “incidental burden” on religious practices; second, it must be justified by “compelling government interest”; third, it must be narrowly tailored to pursue that interest.

    And it’s an open question whether the birth control requirement passes that level of scrutiny, Winkler said, arguing that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is opponents’ best hope to reverse the rule through the courts. “I could see arguments go both ways,” he said.

    White House allies aren’t feeling overconfident, either. “I think the lower courts will support the [contraception] rule, based on the precedent,” said Jessica Arons of the liberal Center for American Progress. “But if it makes it to the Supreme Court, I don’t know how it will play out given the Court’s current makeup.”

    All of which is to say opponents of the birth control requirement still have a chance to reverse it through the courts, should Republicans fail to do so legislatively. But one of their two possible routes to achieving that goal has had a huge impediment thrown in its path by none other than Antonin Scalia.




  4. #49
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    It all comes down to Kennedy who did write he's in favor of big gov't
    in USA v Garcia and I wouldn't even rule out Roberts.

    O BUMMER CARE is even bigger gov't.




  5. #50
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Well I'd like to hear thoughts on BHO's new approach.




  6. #51
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Never mind, I found it Galen. And now I know why you didn't include the link. Basically the law professor goes on to say... it ain't over.

    http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2...ntrol-rule.php

    Here is the rest of the article:
    Whatever. The legal precedent is there formed by a conservative judge.

    Not only is your reasoning weak, you offer no substantial backing to what you are trying to present as some absolute truth. As Spam said simple smug answers do nothing for those who are looking an actual argument. Your typical one line "I'm right so therefore I win" b.s. doesn't do much regardless of what you might think.

    Its irrelevent now though as Obama has found a way to offer contraceptives to those 85%+ Catholic women who take them anyway without threatening the conservatives sense of freedom, liberty and all that right wing glory you guys cling to.








  7. #52
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    looking an actual argument. Your typical one line "I'm right so therefore I win" b.s. doesn't do much regardless of what you might think.
    WTF are you talking about? Actual argument? All you ever want to do is change the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Galen Sevinne View Post
    Its irrelevent now though as Obama has found a way to offer contraceptives to those 85%+ Catholic women who take them anyway without threatening the conservatives sense of freedom, liberty and all that right wing glory you guys cling to.
    It is irrelevant, but as usual you could not be more wrong.

    Let me ask you something Galen. How would you like the POTUS to come and tell you that you are required to offer your patients additional services for free?




  8. #53
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Latest Rasmussen poll shows most Catholics (65%) and Evangelical Christians (62%) oppose OBYs contraception mandate. It's the non-christians that favor it (56%).

    BTW HR - I got that from Freepers, not Drudge.


    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2845475/posts




  9. #54
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Quote Originally Posted by AirFlacco View Post
    Latest Rasmussen poll shows most Catholics (65%) and Evangelical Christians (62%) oppose OBYs contraception mandate. It's the non-christians that favor it (56%).
    Not sure abouut this poll as every poll I have seen supports equal healthcare for all regardless of religion:


    Polls indicate a majority of Americans and Catholics support requiring contraception coverage.

    On Saturday a group supporting expanded access to birth control released a survey showing that 57 percent of Catholic women favor the compromise set forth by Obama.

    It found that 56 percent of independent Catholic voters favored the revised contraceptive coverage rule.

    Among Hispanic Catholics, who could be pivotal in swing states such as New Mexico and Nevada, the poll found 59 percent supported the policy.


    http://news.yahoo.com/u-catholic-bis...212258329.html

    This will be an ugly fight as the Catholic leaderships wants to be sure to exercise their misogynist values over women. This aint the 1960's. Obama put out a compromise that even the head of Catholic Health Association, a female, supported. Now the male Bishops are going to push the fight further. Outside of female Republican congressional women pandering to their base, there are no other women outspoken against this compromise.

    Its all conservative male driven.








  10. #55
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Typical Galen response.

    This isn't about equal healthcare. If Catholics or people of any religion want contraception they can go to their local health department or planned parenthood office already funded by tax payers.

    This is about what would seem to be this administrations apparent problem with the the 1st amendment moreover the constitution in general. And if you or anyone want examples, I can provide them. Not sure I need to though, since I can point to in this thread where you (someone with the same line of thinking: said "I am truly not concerned about the constitutionality of the policy" and then "
    My point is this: Birth control is good social policy so therefore that trumps any issues with constitutionality in my approach"

    BTW - you never answered this:
    How would you like the POTUS to come and tell you that you are required to offer your patients additional services for free?




  11. #56
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    And as I keep saying Rasmussen is more accurate and spot on than
    any other poll.




  12. #57
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    According to this, OBY declared war on the church and has lost and it
    just may have cost him the election.

    It is even believed that the WH will come out with an announcement
    about changing this mandate. Now This is what I call mobilization.

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/whit...eptive-mandate

    He's done more in 3 years turning America into European socialism and
    running up the debt and deficit and Marx could have done in a life time,
    even declaring war on the church.


    BTW HR - This link is from CNS NEWS, not drudge

    http://cnsnews.com/blog/j-matt-barbe...-obama-listens
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 02-12-2012 at 04:32 PM.




  13. #58
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Well, looks like OBY is caving in this time. Leave it to the church to
    mobilize for him to back down but it may not be enough. It will be like the states plans, specifically Hawaii's plan.

    With this compromise the insurance will reach out and guide the
    female employees to contraceptives.


    Funny that this is in an election year too.


    See vid and it's from the liberal ABC NEWS site, not drudge.

    http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...aception-rule/
    Last edited by AirFlacco; 02-12-2012 at 06:28 PM.




  14. #59
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Seriously Trap - these links are from Friday. The compromise has already one through with the support of Planned Parenthood and the Head of the Catholic Health Organization:


    The White House has support from a key Catholic health group on its compromise birth control policy.

    Sister Carol Keehan heads the Catholic Health Organization. She says the compromise "has responded to the issues we identified that needed to be fixed."

    Senior administration officials tell The Associated Press the compromise policy says religious employers won't have to cover birth control for their employees, after all.

    Instead, insurance companies will be directly responsible for providing free contraception.

    Keehan says the resolution "protects the religious liberty and conscience rights of Catholic institutions."


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1268508.html


    Please keep up with the class Trap or I will need to ask you to stay after for extra help.


    The only folks complaining now are the suckers who think their freedoms are being taken away by providing healthcare to women that they WANT. How dare women ask for equal access to healthcare








  15. #60
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    Re: HHS Says Religious-Affiliated Organizations Must Cover Contraception

    Galen couldn't take the reality anymore so he storms off from the discussion and kicks the dog so to speak, with that Trap insults. That's rich. Hope you feel better about yourself.
    “Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people.”

    –Eleanor Roosevelt




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