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  1. #73

    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...



    I just don't want this to be a case of passing up a guy, because he does not perform well at the combine, compared to others at his position. There are plenty of players, on offense and defense, that have had great careers after timing slow in the 40 yard dash.

    Last year, J.J. Watt was not the most athletic of the 3-4DE prospects, but was the most fundamentally sound without question. You saw the results.

    Terrell Suggs himself was considered too slow, by some draft analysts. All that Suggs could really do when he came out of Arizona State was rush the passer. Now, he is the most versatile OLB in the league.

    I just don't see how you can pass up a fundamentally sound and physically dominating ILB like Hightower, who would be the most likely to turn his Ray Lewis studies into gold. We are seeing Ray play at a high level, to this day, compared to the vast majority of ILBs in the league, and he is much slower than he used to be.

    Too many times, we talk ourselves out of what our eyes see. Ray showed you everything that would lead you to believe he was probably a high first round pick. However, he was too small for the position according to the analysts, so he slipped to the Ravens.
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  2. #74
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    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    I just don't want this to be a case of passing up a guy, because he does not perform well at the combine, compared to others at his position. There are plenty of players, on offense and defense, that have had great careers after timing slow in the 40 yard dash.

    Last year, J.J. Watt was not the most athletic of the 3-4DE prospects, but was the most fundamentally sound without question. You saw the results.

    Terrell Suggs himself was considered too slow, by some draft analysts. All that Suggs could really do when he came out of Arizona State was rush the passer. Now, he is the most versatile OLB in the league.

    I just don't see how you can pass up a fundamentally sound and physically dominating ILB like Hightower, who would be the most likely to turn his Ray Lewis studies into gold. We are seeing Ray play at a high level, to this day, compared to the vast majority of ILBs in the league, and he is much slower than he used to be.

    Too many times, we talk ourselves out of what our eyes see. Ray showed you everything that would lead you to believe he was probably a high first round pick. However, he was too small for the position according to the analysts, so he slipped to the Ravens.
    JJ Watt is also not a finesse guy. He's an in-your-face DL'man who has incredible strength and uses it to bull rush and push OL'men back into the pocket. He uses his hands and he uses leverage really well. However, he's someone that honestly probably could thrive in any defensive system, but as a 3-4 DE he's done a great job and picked it up extremely well.
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  3. #75

    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    JJ Watt is also not a finesse guy. He's an in-your-face DL'man who has incredible strength and uses it to bull rush and push OL'men back into the pocket. He uses his hands and he uses leverage really well. However, he's someone that honestly probably could thrive in any defensive system, but as a 3-4 DE he's done a great job and picked it up extremely well.
    Could the same not be said for Dont'a Hightower?
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  4. #76
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    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    Whats the history of MLB being drafted in the first round though? I tried looking up a position breakdown. assuming FB TE and Safety are probably the least, id assume a MLB is probably 4th on that list as far as first round picks used on the position. I dont think teams value ILB as much as other positions, unless you have a once in a lifetime talent (Lewis, Willis, etc) not saying these guys arent talented but are they in the upper echelon that teams wont see better value?
    Going back to 1999 here are the MLB's drafted in round 1:

    1999
    Andy Katzenmoyer, Patriots, 28th overall (Bust)
    Al Wilson, Denver Broncos, 31st overall (Solid player)

    *Mike Peterson was taken in round 2, Dat Nguyen was taken in round 3, and Eric Barton was taken in round 5. You could argue that these three were better than both Katzenmoyer and Wilson and cost a fraction of what a 1st round pick would have been.

    2000
    LaVarr Arrington, Redskins, #2 overall (Solid, but never great)
    Brian Urlacher, Bears, #9 overall (Potential HOF'er, muli Pro-Bowler and All Pro)
    Rob Morris, Colts, 28th overall (Average player, not 1st round value)
    Keith Bullock, Titans, 30th overall (Solid player for a long time, worth the value)

    *Marcus Washington (2nd round), Jeff Ulbrich (3rd round), Nai'il Diggs (4th round), Dhani Jones (6th round), & Adalius Thomas (6th round) were all taken in the same draft and played MLB and OLB in some respects. Other than Brian Urlacher, all of these guys were just as effective as their 1st round counterparts, some more so.

    2001
    Dan Morgan, Panther, 11th overall (Very good when healthy)

    *Morlon Greenwood (3rd round), Edgerton Hartwell (4th round), Antonio Pierce (undrafted),

    2002
    Napoleon Harris, Raiders, 23rd overall (Bust)
    Robert Thomas, Rams, 31st overall (Bust)

    *Ben Leber (3rd), Will Witherspoon (3rd), Akin Ayodele (3rd), Kevin Bentley (4th), David Thornton (4th), Larry Foote (4th), Andra Davis (5th), Scott Fujita (5th), DD Lewis (undrafted), Bart Scott (undrafted).

    2003
    Nick Barnett, Packers, 29th overall (Solid player, never great)

    * EJ Henderson (2nd), Pisa Tinoisamoa (2nd), Kawika Mitchell (2nd), Bradie James (4th), Mario Haggan (7th), Tracy White (undrafted).

    2004
    Jonathan Vilma, Jets, 12th overall (Very good player)
    DJ Williams, Broncos, 17th overall (Very good player)

    *Karlos Dansby (2nd), Daryl Smith (2nd), Keyaron Fox (3rd), Brandon Chillar (4th).

    2005
    Thomas Davis, Panthers, 14th overall (Talented, never healthy, bust)
    Derrick Johnson, Chiefs, 15th overall (Solid, but took 6 years to really reach potential)

    * Barrett Ruud (2nd), Kevin Burnett (2nd), Lofa Tatupu (2nd), Kirk Morrison (3rd), & Chase Blackburn (undrafted).

    2006
    AJ Hawk, Packers, 5th overall (Solid, but not Top 5 worthy)

    * DeMecco Ryans (2nd), D'Qwell Jackson (2nd), Rocky McIntosh (2nd), Thomas Howard (2nd), Stephen Tulloch (4th).

    2007
    Patrick Willis, Niners, 11th overall (Arguably the best MLB currently in the NFL, potential HOF'er when career is over)
    Lawrence Timmons, Steelers, 15th overall (Solid player, not worth of 1st round status yet)
    Jon Beason, Panthers, 25th overall (Excellent player, hard time staying healthy)

    * Paul Posluszny (2nd), David Harris (2nd), Justin Durrant (2nd), Quincy Black (3rd), Stewart Bradley (3rd), Desmond Bishop (6th), Brandon Siler (7th).

    2008
    Jerrod Mayo, Pats, 10th overall (Solid player. Worth the top pick.)

    *Curtis Lofton (2nd), Dan Connor (3rd), Jonathan Goff (5th), Joe Mays (6th), David Vobora (7th), Jameel McClain (undrafted), Gary Guyton (undrafted), Wesley Woodyard (undrafted).

    2009
    Brian Cushing, Texans, 15th overall (3 years later and he's one of the top MLB's in the NFL)

    *James Laurinaitis (2nd), Rey Maualuga (2nd), Jasper Brinkley (5th), Zack Follett (7th), Jovan Belcher (undrafted), Dannell Ellerbe (undrafted).

    2010
    Rolando McClain, Raiders, 8th overall (Solid, off field concerns)

    *Darryl Washington (2nd), Sean Lee (2nd), Brandon Spikes (2nd), Pat Angerer (2nd), Donald Butler (3rd), Navarro Bowman (3rd), Perry Riley (4th), Jamar Chaney (7th), Dan Fletcher (undrafted).

    2011
    No First Round MLB's Taken

    *Bruce Carter (2nd), Akeem Ayers (2nd), Kelvin Sheppard (3rd), Mason Foster (3rd), Colin McCarthy (4th), Casey Matthews (4th), Quan Sturdivant (6th), Greg Jones (6th).

    So, in 13 years you have arguably 5 MLB's taken in round 1 that have met or exceeded their value, 6 who were solid players and arguably met their value, but never exceeded it, and 7 MLB prospects who were flat out busts or severly underplayed in respect to their draft position.

    Like RB, unless the guy is something very special like a Brian Cushing or a Jerrod Mayo, the value of MLB's just aren't there anymore. Just look at last year's draft. NO middle linebackers taken in round 1 even though Greg Jones, Casey Matthews, Kelvin Sheppard, Bruce Carter, and Quan Sturdivant were all touted as having 1st round talent.

    Now, Hightower is one of those guys where I think a GM is going to fall in love with his measurables. The guy is bigger than some DL'men and moves really well. He tackles well. He's smart. He's got decent lateral quickness. He sheds blockers well. And finally, he's got 3 years of experience in an NFL style 3-4 defense. Luke Kuechly may be the best overall MLB in this class, but he doesn't have the upside that Hightower has. If Hightower runs well at the combine and displays good burst and agility, he could propel himself into the top 15 easily.
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  5. #77
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    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    I remember hearing a radio show with Jeremiah Trotter talking about Burfict. He says that guys with his passion and physicality are a lost art in the NFL. He said Ray, B-Dawk, and James Harrison are only guys who truely exhbit this kind of feeling.




  6. #78
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    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Wicked, you really don't think Timmons is not worthy of being taken in round 1? I know he's moved around a lot and not been purely a MLB but he's been a very good player. I think he was the last good 1st round pick the Steelers had.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  7. #79
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    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Wicked, you really don't think Timmons is not worthy of being taken in round 1? I know he's moved around a lot and not been purely a MLB but he's been a very good player. I think he was the last good 1st round pick the Steelers had.
    He's a good player, but when you look at that draft class is he really better (or THAT much better) than Poz, David Harris, or Desmond Bishop? I don't think so and what's funny is that both Harris and Bishop have excelled in a 3-4 scheme, so it's not like we can say that Timmons cannot be compared to these other guys from the same draft year.
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  8. #80

    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Wicked, you really don't think Timmons is not worthy of being taken in round 1? I know he's moved around a lot and not been purely a MLB but he's been a very good player. I think he was the last good 1st round pick the Steelers had.
    I agreed with you on Timmons, he is definitely worthy of a 1st round pick. You don't think Pouncey was a good pick for them?




  9. #81

    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Going back to 1999 here are the MLB's drafted in round 1:

    1999
    Andy Katzenmoyer, Patriots, 28th overall (Bust)
    Al Wilson, Denver Broncos, 31st overall (Solid player)

    *Mike Peterson was taken in round 2, Dat Nguyen was taken in round 3, and Eric Barton was taken in round 5. You could argue that these three were better than both Katzenmoyer and Wilson and cost a fraction of what a 1st round pick would have been.

    2000
    LaVarr Arrington, Redskins, #2 overall (Solid, but never great)
    Brian Urlacher, Bears, #9 overall (Potential HOF'er, muli Pro-Bowler and All Pro)
    Rob Morris, Colts, 28th overall (Average player, not 1st round value)
    Keith Bullock, Titans, 30th overall (Solid player for a long time, worth the value)

    *Marcus Washington (2nd round), Jeff Ulbrich (3rd round), Nai'il Diggs (4th round), Dhani Jones (6th round), & Adalius Thomas (6th round) were all taken in the same draft and played MLB and OLB in some respects. Other than Brian Urlacher, all of these guys were just as effective as their 1st round counterparts, some more so.

    2001
    Dan Morgan, Panther, 11th overall (Very good when healthy)

    *Morlon Greenwood (3rd round), Edgerton Hartwell (4th round), Antonio Pierce (undrafted),

    2002
    Napoleon Harris, Raiders, 23rd overall (Bust)
    Robert Thomas, Rams, 31st overall (Bust)

    *Ben Leber (3rd), Will Witherspoon (3rd), Akin Ayodele (3rd), Kevin Bentley (4th), David Thornton (4th), Larry Foote (4th), Andra Davis (5th), Scott Fujita (5th), DD Lewis (undrafted), Bart Scott (undrafted).

    2003
    Nick Barnett, Packers, 29th overall (Solid player, never great)

    * EJ Henderson (2nd), Pisa Tinoisamoa (2nd), Kawika Mitchell (2nd), Bradie James (4th), Mario Haggan (7th), Tracy White (undrafted).

    2004
    Jonathan Vilma, Jets, 12th overall (Very good player)
    DJ Williams, Broncos, 17th overall (Very good player)

    *Karlos Dansby (2nd), Daryl Smith (2nd), Keyaron Fox (3rd), Brandon Chillar (4th).

    2005
    Thomas Davis, Panthers, 14th overall (Talented, never healthy, bust)
    Derrick Johnson, Chiefs, 15th overall (Solid, but took 6 years to really reach potential)

    * Barrett Ruud (2nd), Kevin Burnett (2nd), Lofa Tatupu (2nd), Kirk Morrison (3rd), & Chase Blackburn (undrafted).

    2006
    AJ Hawk, Packers, 5th overall (Solid, but not Top 5 worthy)

    * DeMecco Ryans (2nd), D'Qwell Jackson (2nd), Rocky McIntosh (2nd), Thomas Howard (2nd), Stephen Tulloch (4th).

    2007
    Patrick Willis, Niners, 11th overall (Arguably the best MLB currently in the NFL, potential HOF'er when career is over)
    Lawrence Timmons, Steelers, 15th overall (Solid player, not worth of 1st round status yet)
    Jon Beason, Panthers, 25th overall (Excellent player, hard time staying healthy)

    * Paul Posluszny (2nd), David Harris (2nd), Justin Durrant (2nd), Quincy Black (3rd), Stewart Bradley (3rd), Desmond Bishop (6th), Brandon Siler (7th).

    2008
    Jerrod Mayo, Pats, 10th overall (Solid player. Worth the top pick.)

    *Curtis Lofton (2nd), Dan Connor (3rd), Jonathan Goff (5th), Joe Mays (6th), David Vobora (7th), Jameel McClain (undrafted), Gary Guyton (undrafted), Wesley Woodyard (undrafted).

    2009
    Brian Cushing, Texans, 15th overall (3 years later and he's one of the top MLB's in the NFL)

    *James Laurinaitis (2nd), Rey Maualuga (2nd), Jasper Brinkley (5th), Zack Follett (7th), Jovan Belcher (undrafted), Dannell Ellerbe (undrafted).

    2010
    Rolando McClain, Raiders, 8th overall (Solid, off field concerns)

    *Darryl Washington (2nd), Sean Lee (2nd), Brandon Spikes (2nd), Pat Angerer (2nd), Donald Butler (3rd), Navarro Bowman (3rd), Perry Riley (4th), Jamar Chaney (7th), Dan Fletcher (undrafted).

    2011
    No First Round MLB's Taken

    *Bruce Carter (2nd), Akeem Ayers (2nd), Kelvin Sheppard (3rd), Mason Foster (3rd), Colin McCarthy (4th), Casey Matthews (4th), Quan Sturdivant (6th), Greg Jones (6th).

    So, in 13 years you have arguably 5 MLB's taken in round 1 that have met or exceeded their value, 6 who were solid players and arguably met their value, but never exceeded it, and 7 MLB prospects who were flat out busts or severly underplayed in respect to their draft position.

    Like RB, unless the guy is something very special like a Brian Cushing or a Jerrod Mayo, the value of MLB's just aren't there anymore. Just look at last year's draft. NO middle linebackers taken in round 1 even though Greg Jones, Casey Matthews, Kelvin Sheppard, Bruce Carter, and Quan Sturdivant were all touted as having 1st round talent.

    Now, Hightower is one of those guys where I think a GM is going to fall in love with his measurables. The guy is bigger than some DL'men and moves really well. He tackles well. He's smart. He's got decent lateral quickness. He sheds blockers well. And finally, he's got 3 years of experience in an NFL style 3-4 defense. Luke Kuechly may be the best overall MLB in this class, but he doesn't have the upside that Hightower has. If Hightower runs well at the combine and displays good burst and agility, he could propel himself into the top 15 easily.
    Thanks. Seems to me theres typically one, maybe two at most, taken in the top 15 after that, youre looking at the end of the round or typically 2nd round for the bulk of the top players at the position. So ravens should have a good choice available, and may even trade back since they dont have their 4th rounder.
    -JAB




  10. #82
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    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    He's a good player, but when you look at that draft class is he really better (or THAT much better) than Poz, David Harris, or Desmond Bishop? I don't think so and what's funny is that both Harris and Bishop have excelled in a 3-4 scheme, so it's not like we can say that Timmons cannot be compared to these other guys from the same draft year.
    Can't argue against that logic. Looking at it that way you're right
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  11. #83

    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    I really like Burfict and would be ecstatic if we were able to get him.

    Dude is everything we've been lacking at ILB for the lasat couple years...he would be the most athletic LB we have by far and he has good instincts to go with them...just have to learn to funnel that aggression appropriately on the field.




  12. #84

    Re: If the Ravens can't get Vontaze Burfict...

    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Wicked, you really don't think Timmons is not worthy of being taken in round 1? I know he's moved around a lot and not been purely a MLB but he's been a very good player. I think he was the last good 1st round pick the Steelers had.
    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    He's a good player, but when you look at that draft class is he really better (or THAT much better) than Poz, David Harris, or Desmond Bishop? I don't think so and what's funny is that both Harris and Bishop have excelled in a 3-4 scheme, so it's not like we can say that Timmons cannot be compared to these other guys from the same draft year.
    I cetainly think Timmons is better than Poz and Bishop...a LOT better. He allows Pitt to do a lot of things with thier D as not only is he physical and a good tackler, he is a very good coverage LB. And he is very versatile as he can play OLB in the 3-4 as well.

    I don't think Poz or Bishop are in his class at all.

    I certainly can understand Harris being up there and even better to a degree, but Timmons is a hell of a player. Just the fact that Pitt, who hardly ever overpay for their own guys and don't hesitate to let them walk, re-signed him to that huge deal should tell you how good he is.




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