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  1. #16
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...



    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I don't believe so.

    McKinnie signed a 2-year deal.
    That's correct. For Gurode it was a 1 year deal that could be worth double the money with incentives.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  2. #17

    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    You guys multi-task much too well. I'm focused on winning NOW, not next year! I'll deal with this after the Superbowl hangover wears off... like Feb. 10th or 11th
    After 5 years of early exits, the journey is finally complete.




  3. #18
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    If they use a 2nd on a center I hope it's to move around to take Brewster or Ben Jones. Or maybe one of those two guys drop.
    Agreed. I would love to get Brewster in the mid-late 2nd and I think it can happen.




  4. #19

    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Depends on what shakes out in the draft.

    Center/guard is one of those positions where the value is there, but no one really wants to jump on it "too" high. Ya know? For example, both the Steelers and Dolphins used fairly high picks on the Pouncey twins and neither have really been overly impressive, although they've been solid. Then again, the Jets a few years ago used a 1st rounder on Nick Mangold and he's easily the best overall center in the NFL right now, so the value is there and he was able to step in his rookie year and play at a high level.

    In the draft there are 3 guys who could make cases for being 1st/2nd round picks: Peter Konz out of Wisconsin, Mike Brewster out of Ohio State, and Ben Jones out of Georgia. There are a couple of 2nd tier guys like William Vlachos out of Alabama, Philip Blake out of Baylor, David Molk out of Michigan, and Quinton Saulsberry out of Mississippi State. A lot of folks like Vlachos, but he's 6'1" and about 290lbs. How would he deal with Casey Hampton? How would Flacco (who is 6'6" and change) deal with taking snaps from a guy who is more than 5 inches shorter than him?

    Those are things to think about.

    David Molk is another one who is going to have a tough time. He's 285lbs, but he's a good player. Do you take a player like that and bulk them up behind a guy like Gurode or Jackson? I don't have a good answer for that.

    Frankly, I think that they should worry about re-signing Grubbs and getting better at LT because with Grubbs and Yanda at guard, they can help out the center if he's a rookie or a so-so free agent.
    I am one of those people who is very high on Vlachos. He may only be 6'1 295 or thereabouts, but size is much less important at the C position than technique and intelligence. A lot of great centers in the league have been sub-300 guys, including Jeff Saturday, Olin Kreutz, etc. In fact, our own Matt Birk is listed at 6'4 309, and that is actually a lower BMI than Vlachos.

    In the Ravens' system you are going to see the center try to get to the second level via combo blocks moreso than going head-up against a DT anyway. There are only a few centers in the league that really can overpower big DTs and NTs one-on-one, and Matt Birk already is not (and never was) one of them. I think Vlachos fits the scheme well, particularly if we continue to move to zone-blocking principles.

    He's not my favorite center in the class, but he's a good one and he looks like an Ozzie pick. He could probably be had in the 3rd round. I dunno if you ask him to start day 1, but IMO I think the Ravens should consider giving Birk a 1-year deal (if he wants to come back) AND drafting a guy like Vlachos or Mike Brewster (Brewster is probably in the 2nd or even 3rd as well at this point after his bad year) to serve as his understudy. I don't know how cheap Birk will be, but I think he will accept a 1-year deal with a small bonus or no bonus while I think Gurode will want a multi-year deal with guarantees. I think Birk is also still playing at a very high level, higher than Gurode is capable of, and the continuity is extremely valuable from a scheme perspective.




  5. #20
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I am one of those people who is very high on Vlachos. He may only be 6'1 295 or thereabouts, but size is much less important at the C position than technique and intelligence. A lot of great centers in the league have been sub-300 guys, including Jeff Saturday, Olin Kreutz, etc. In fact, our own Matt Birk is listed at 6'4 309, and that is actually a lower BMI than Vlachos.

    In the Ravens' system you are going to see the center try to get to the second level via combo blocks moreso than going head-up against a DT anyway. There are only a few centers in the league that really can overpower big DTs and NTs one-on-one, and Matt Birk already is not (and never was) one of them. I think Vlachos fits the scheme well, particularly if we continue to move to zone-blocking principles.

    He's not my favorite center in the class, but he's a good one and he looks like an Ozzie pick. He could probably be had in the 3rd round. I dunno if you ask him to start day 1, but IMO I think the Ravens should consider giving Birk a 1-year deal (if he wants to come back) AND drafting a guy like Vlachos or Mike Brewster (Brewster is probably in the 2nd or even 3rd as well at this point after his bad year) to serve as his understudy. I don't know how cheap Birk will be, but I think he will accept a 1-year deal with a small bonus or no bonus while I think Gurode will want a multi-year deal with guarantees. I think Birk is also still playing at a very high level, higher than Gurode is capable of, and the continuity is extremely valuable from a scheme perspective.
    I think Vlachos brings a lot of value as a run blocker, but again, you have to consider the fact that Flacco is 5 inches taller than him and taking a direct snap from Vlachos might impede on Flacco's ability to smoothly transition from snap and into his drop steps. It's a legitimate concern. That is one of the reasons why Birk was so desirable as a center prospect at the time. Cam likes taller centers for this very reason.

    In the 4th or 5th round I think Vlachos is a steal, but in the 2nd or 3rd I think it's a major reach.
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  6. #21
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by SC_Raven_Fan View Post
    You guys multi-task much too well. I'm focused on winning NOW, not next year! I'll deal with this after the Superbowl hangover wears off... like Feb. 10th or 11th
    There is not that much talk about the Texans game. After 2 weeks it's been pretty much analyzed. Nothing wrong with looking at other topic. That keeps the board interesting.
    He Who Dares.....Wins




  7. #22

    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Why wouldnt we re-sign gurode? He's 33 years old, probably has 2 years left in him maybe more(with him sitting the bench this year). Ive been watching his scores that FilmStudy gives him and he seems to still be very good under center.

    We need to fill holes elsewhere before we worry about a position that we already have a pro bowl player at.

    Such as:
    LB
    WR
    Safety
    LT




  8. #23
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Was there not a second year option on McKinnie's contract?
    "When questioned, the Elders explained that they were in search of magical powers. However, they're actually searching for the whereabouts of a certain ring. This ring is a legendary treasure that long ago was known to exist"




  9. #24

    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Was there not a second year option on McKinnie's contract?
    Yes, he is under contract for 2012 at just under 4mil, per several sources I could find. I didn't find anything that specifically described it as an option year, just a standard 2-year deal. I don't see any reason why McKinnie isn't the Ravens starting LT in 2012. Even if we do draft a guy, barring him beating McKinnie in training camp (if the position is even up for grabs), he won't see time at LT next year.

    That's part of why I would have loved Barrett Jones, the dude has been a beast at LT for Alabama but he was also a quality starter at LG. He could have started at LG in 2012 and then moved to LT in 2013 like Ogden did in his first two years. Of course, that's not an option anymore.




  10. #25

    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I think Vlachos brings a lot of value as a run blocker, but again, you have to consider the fact that Flacco is 5 inches taller than him and taking a direct snap from Vlachos might impede on Flacco's ability to smoothly transition from snap and into his drop steps. It's a legitimate concern. That is one of the reasons why Birk was so desirable as a center prospect at the time. Cam likes taller centers for this very reason.

    .
    So this guy is 3 inches shorter than Birk? So, that translate to about 1 and 1/2 inches difference, based on height on taking the snap. I don't think that is going to make any kind of difference or cause any problems with the snap. I think that is falling into the trap of over analysis.




  11. #26

    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    So this guy is 3 inches shorter than Birk? So, that translate to about 1 and 1/2 inches difference, based on height on taking the snap. I don't think that is going to make any kind of difference or cause any problems with the snap. I think that is falling into the trap of over analysis.
    I agree. These guys practice for a reason. Coming in cold off the bench, it might be a difficult adjustment, but given an offseason of practice I think that concern is essentially nil. Maybe I'm wrong, I played DB in high school and college (albeit not at a high level) and I don't have experience with the muscle memory of taking snaps from center in game action. I know Flacco took snaps from Ryan Bartholomew in training camp last year, and he's 6'1 flat.

    To be honest, I'm not sure I've ever heard anybody criticize a center for being 6'1. In fact, most scouts would tell you that at the center position, you really want a guy between 6'1 and 6'4. Above 6'5, you start to get into some issues with leverage and center of gravity. That's actually one of the only knocks on Peter Konz out of Wisconsin; at 6'5 310 he's a bit tall for a center. Some have said he might be an all-pro at guard based on that build with his athleticism.




  12. #27
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by bmorecareful View Post
    I agree. These guys practice for a reason. Coming in cold off the bench, it might be a difficult adjustment, but given an offseason of practice I think that concern is essentially nil. Maybe I'm wrong, I played DB in high school and college (albeit not at a high level) and I don't have experience with the muscle memory of taking snaps from center in game action. I know Flacco took snaps from Ryan Bartholomew in training camp last year, and he's 6'1 flat.

    To be honest, I'm not sure I've ever heard anybody criticize a center for being 6'1. In fact, most scouts would tell you that at the center position, you really want a guy between 6'1 and 6'4. Above 6'5, you start to get into some issues with leverage and center of gravity. That's actually one of the only knocks on Peter Konz out of Wisconsin; at 6'5 310 he's a bit tall for a center. Some have said he might be an all-pro at guard based on that build with his athleticism.
    Well, let's see what they all actually measure in at during the combine.

    For all we know Vlachos could be barely 6' and Konz could be 6'3".

    Texas Tech had Crabtree listed as like 6'3" and at the combine he measured in almost 2.5 inches shorter.

    You guys call it over analysis, and it is, but it's just like scouts looking at the size of a receivers hands. They look at everything. Absolutely everything and the height of a center when your QB is just under 6'7" is going to come into play.

    I'm not anti-Vlachos, I'm pro Philip Blake and Ben Jones.
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  13. #28
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    There are a couple of 2nd tier guys like William Vlachos out of Alabama.
    A short, but decent story on Vlachos can be read here Bleacher Report, so it's not exactly probing.

    But it does make me wonder if this is a guy the Ravens scouts could jump on as a great value because his performances outshine his measurables. That is often where they get their best mid-round values.

    On the other hand, Cam has stated he likes a tall center (hence Birk). Will Cam be around to have a say (I think yes). Will his say outweigh the scouts'? (I think no).




  14. #29

    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    One thing to consider with a rookie center is what effect he may have on pass protection. Since the center is responsible for making the line calls the pass pro starts with him. I know that the calls they have to make in college are generally pretty advanced, but I still think its something that has to be considered with rookie centers.

    It's also why having a good one is so important to an offense...you don't want to be in a situation where there's an unknown at that position when you are likely going to be poised for another play-off run with a passing game you'd like to continue to develop.

    That's why I think, even if they go Center early, I think they still try to retain Gurode or, if they can't, will make some kind of quality interior OL depth signing for security. In either case, if they took the Center in the first or second, I'd expect him to start with Gurode/FA as plan B.




  15. #30
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    Re: If Gurode isn't retained, Jamaal Jackson may be an option...

    Quote Originally Posted by goodandfast View Post
    One thing to consider with a rookie center is what effect he may have on pass protection. Since the center is responsible for making the line calls the pass pro starts with him. I know that the calls they have to make in college are generally pretty advanced, but I still think its something that has to be considered with rookie centers.

    It's also why having a good one is so important to an offense...you don't want to be in a situation where there's an unknown at that position when you are likely going to be poised for another play-off run with a passing game you'd like to continue to develop.

    That's why I think, even if they go Center early, I think they still try to retain Gurode or, if they can't, will make some kind of quality interior OL depth signing for security. In either case, if they took the Center in the first or second, I'd expect him to start with Gurode/FA as plan B.
    I think Yanda would end up making a lot of the calls until whoever at center (if they are a rookie) is comfortable doing it.
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