Flacco vs Ryan

**lovefootball** · 01-09-2012, 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I hate that argument as well and would even argue that the last 2 years their defense has greatly improved and narrowed that gap (ranked 12th overall in 10 and 11). This goes back to the progressed/regressed debate. As I have said I think Flacco has progressed even if his stats regressed. I havent watched nearly as much of Ryan's games, but ive come to pretty much the exact opposite conclusion with him, as his stats have gone up, but really i dont see any progress as a player if not regression. I would have thought the addition of Jones would have done more for them than it has, but the argument that we have a better team, atleast offensively, is absurd. We havent had their talent at WR before the addition of Jones let alone now.

Stats are overated and the Denver/Steeler game proved it. Wait till next Monday and it would be a fair time to say who is the better QB.Winning is the only stat that means anything. Win and you advance, lose and you go home to rest for next season.. Right now, the falcons are getting ready for the off season, not by their choice.

**bt12483** · 01-09-2012, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

I hate that argument as well and would even argue that the last 2 years their defense has greatly improved and narrowed that gap (ranked 12th overall in 10 and 11). This goes back to the progressed/regressed debate. As I have said I think Flacco has progressed even if his stats regressed. I havent watched nearly as much of Ryan's games, but ive come to pretty much the exact opposite conclusion with him, as his stats have gone up, but really i dont see any progress as a player if not regression. I would have thought the addition of Jones would have done more for them than it has, but the argument that we have a better team, atleast offensively, is absurd. We havent had their talent at WR before the addition of Jones let alone now.

Ryan in a dome with 2 stud WRs and HoF TE - Ryan SHOULD have better stats than Flacco.

The fact that they were neck and neck before this year says a lot. And Ryan only got more stats this year because of Jones breaking big plays, padding Ryan's stats, and Turner wearing down at the end of the year forcing ATL to throw more.

Julio made several 20 yards passes into 40-80 yard TDs via YAC. The only catch Ryan directly hit Julio in the endzone was the 50 yard luck ass bomb in Indy. Every other Julio TD came as a result of Julio doing his own YAC.

Meanwhile, Flacco hit Torrey in the endzone several times - Flacco did the work placing the ball - he didn't rely on Torrey's YAC to score the TD.

Things like this don't show up in the stats - but if you watch the games you know how certain TDs were scored. Flacco hit Torrey in the endzone - Ryan hit Julio and Julio ran and did the work. Both show up as yards and TDs...but one version reflects back more positively for the QB that hit his WR in the endzone vs the WR getting the TD via YAC.

Julio helped Ryan's stats big time this year, because of his own personal gamebreaking play - not because of Ryan's passes. Torrey got his TDs largely because Flacco hit him in the Endzone on deep balls.

**wickedsolo** · 01-09-2012, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Ryan in a dome with 2 stud WRs and HoF TE - Ryan SHOULD have better stats than Flacco.

The fact that they were neck and neck before this year says a lot. And Ryan only got more stats this year because of Jones breaking big plays, padding Ryan's stats, and Turner wearing down at the end of the year forcing ATL to throw more.

Julio made several 20 yards passes into 40-80 yard TDs via YAC. The only catch Ryan directly hit Julio in the endzone was the 50 yard luck ass bomb in Indy. Every other Julio TD came as a result of Julio doing his own YAC.

Meanwhile, Flacco hit Torrey in the endzone several times - Flacco did the work placing the ball - he didn't rely on Torrey's YAC to score the TD.

Things like this don't show up in the stats - but if you watch the games you know how certain TDs were scored. Flacco hit Torrey in the endzone - Ryan hit Julio and Julio ran and did the work. Both show up as yards and TDs...but one version reflects back more positively for the QB that hit his WR in the endzone vs the WR getting the TD via YAC.

Julio helped Ryan's stats big time this year, because of his own personal gamebreaking play - not because of Ryan's passes. Torrey got his TDs largely because Flacco hit him in the Endzone on deep balls.

Another thing is that the NFC South isn't exactly known for stellar defensive units.

The Steelers and Bengals have arguably two of the top rated defensive units in the NFL and Flacco plays them twice a year in the elements.

**bt12483** · 01-09-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Another thing is that the NFC South isn't exactly known for stellar defensive units.

The Steelers and Bengals have arguably two of the top rated defensive units in the NFL and Flacco plays them twice a year in the elements.

Don't leave out the Browns - their Run D sucks but their pass D is decent with Haden.

In fact, Pitt, Cleveland and Cincy were top 10 in passing D this year.

Flacco played 9/11 of the top 11 passing DEFs this year, excluding our own team. Pitt, Cleve, Houston, St. Louis, Jets, KC, Jacksonville, Cincy, Seattle.

Ryan played maybe 3 of those teams.

**wickedsolo** · 01-09-2012, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Don't leave out the Browns - their Run D sucks but their pass D is decent with Haden.

In fact, Pitt, Cleveland and Cincy were top 10 in passing D this year.

Flacco played 9/11 of the top 11 passing DEFs this year, excluding our own team. Pitt, Cleve, Houston, St. Louis, Jets, KC, Jacksonville, Cincy, Seattle.

Ryan played maybe 3 of those teams.

I didn't include Cleveland because I don't buy the top rated pass defense thing. I think that was more of a result of them being so bad at stopping the run that not many teams really passed on them because they didn't have to.

However, I think Cleveland has some good players and certainly Joe Haden is one of them. I just don't believe that their "top rated" pass defense could shut down a team like New Orleans or New England.

**bt12483** · 01-09-2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I didn't include Cleveland because I don't buy the top rated pass defense thing. I think that was more of a result of them being so bad at stopping the run that not many teams really passed on them because they didn't have to.

However, I think Cleveland has some good players and certainly Joe Haden is one of them. I just don't believe that their "top rated" pass defense could shut down a team like New Orleans or New England.

Yeah I have the same suspicions regarding Cleveland, but the stats are what they are.

Even without Cleveland Flacco still played way more of the top passing D's than Ryan did. Mostly outside. In real weather.

**wickedsolo** · 01-09-2012, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Yeah I have the same suspicions regarding Cleveland, but the stats are what they are.

Even without Cleveland Flacco still played way more of the top passing D's than Ryan did. Mostly outside. In real weather.

Yup. Jets and Niners for example.

**JAB1985** · 01-09-2012, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Ryan in a dome with 2 stud WRs and HoF TE - Ryan SHOULD have better stats than Flacco.

The fact that they were neck and neck before this year says a lot. And Ryan only got more stats this year because of Jones breaking big plays, padding Ryan's stats, and Turner wearing down at the end of the year forcing ATL to throw more.

Julio made several 20 yards passes into 40-80 yard TDs via YAC. The only catch Ryan directly hit Julio in the endzone was the 50 yard luck ass bomb in Indy. Every other Julio TD came as a result of Julio doing his own YAC.

Meanwhile, Flacco hit Torrey in the endzone several times - Flacco did the work placing the ball - he didn't rely on Torrey's YAC to score the TD.

Things like this don't show up in the stats - but if you watch the games you know how certain TDs were scored. Flacco hit Torrey in the endzone - Ryan hit Julio and Julio ran and did the work. Both show up as yards and TDs...but one version reflects back more positively for the QB that hit his WR in the endzone vs the WR getting the TD via YAC.

Julio helped Ryan's stats big time this year, because of his own personal gamebreaking play - not because of Ryan's passes. Torrey got his TDs largely because Flacco hit him in the Endzone on deep balls.

Id agree with that. Jones obviously helped, but not as much as i would have assumed he would have. The YAC is good point about the QBs. torrey and Jones had very similar seasons, but i think if we added Jones instead hed have had a greater impact on our offense than he did in ATL which i think directly effects matt ryan. Flacco is hands down a better QB in this debate, and his records and stats (up until this year) have shown that.

**bt12483** · 01-09-2012, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by JAB1985

Id agree with that. Jones obviously helped, but not as much as i would have assumed he would have. The YAC is good point about the QBs. torrey and Jones had very similar seasons, but i think if we added Jones instead hed have had a greater impact on our offense than he did in ATL which i think directly effects matt ryan. Flacco is hands down a better QB in this debate, and his records and stats (up until this year) have shown that.

Julio missed about 4 games due to injury this year too.

He would have been the #1 rookie WR over AJ green if he didn't get hurt IMO.

Right now its AJ, Julio, Torrey. But Aj and Julio were both top 10 picks. We got good production out of Torrey compared to AJ and Julio and draft order.

**The Excellector** · 01-09-2012, 12:55 PM

Here are the issues with Matt Ryan. He does not have the arm to best utilize Julio Jones. He seems to be unable to make a play work when something breaks down. Atlanta fans are already declaring that Ryan has a tendency to play scared. I won't comment on the guy's toughness, personally, but that is what they are saying. That once he feels a little pressure he begins falling before he completes throws and bailing out of the pocket before the pressure even gets to him, only to not make much happen once outside of the pocket.

**alienrace** · 01-09-2012, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

Here are the issues with Matt Ryan. He does not have the arm to best utilize Julio Jones. He seems to be unable to make a play work when something breaks down. Atlanta fans are already declaring that Ryan has a tendency to play scared. I won't comment on the guy's toughness, personally, but that is what they are saying. That once he feels a little pressure he begins falling before he completes throws and bailing out of the pocket before the pressure even gets to him, only to not make much happen once outside of the pocket.

That's what I've seen from him too. When pressure gets in his face, he shortarms the ball a lot. I saw this when they played the Jets in 2009, and the Steelers last year.

**AirFlacco** · 01-09-2012, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by bt12483

Julio missed about 4 games due to injury this year too.

He would have been the #1 rookie WR over AJ green if he didn't get hurt IMO.

Right now its AJ, Julio, Torrey. But Aj and Julio were both top 10 picks. We got good production out of Torrey compared to AJ and Julio and draft order.

Prob is, we still need another one just like Torrey after
Evans pulled a Stallworth.