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  1. #37
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    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk



    Quote Originally Posted by GOTA View Post
    Ray wanted to come back 2 games earlier than he did and the coaches said no. This coaching staff is not scared of him. If they feel they have a better option than Ray Lewis on 3rd down or any other down they would play him.
    This, at this point I see no one on the sideline who is a better option, and I have said for years that Ray can't cover across the middle anymore.




  2. #38
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    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    Somehow, I really don't think Harbaugh will let the legacy crap play into his decision. I really don't. Harbs has had a role in sending several beloved Ravens packing and he even benched Cmac for a much worse Frank Walker.

    The reason that Ray hasn't been phased out is because they don't have full faith in the guys behind him. I like Ellerbe a lot but he's had some injury woes and he's spent some time in Harbaugh's dog house.




  3. #39
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    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    Ray was having a Pro Bowl season before he got hurt and looks washed up since coming back. I find it hard to believe it's a coincidence.




  4. #40

    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiMoon View Post
    Ray was having a Pro Bowl season before he got hurt and looks washed up since coming back. I find it hard to believe it's a coincidence.
    Agree with that, he's still hurt. He spent half the game on the ground against Cleveland.

    Did anyone else notice Cleveland continually splitting out their backs to the far end of their formations in passing downs(like San Diego did before only a lesser amount).

    The Ravens tried once putting Ray on Ogobonaya and he had a 12 yard reception because Ray had to play off about 6-8 yards. Then, they started putting McClain or Ayanbadejo on the wide Rb and left Ray isolated in the middle (which is probably what Cleveland really wanted). They then made hay over the middle leading to a ~17% increase in their 3rd down conversion rate between game 1 and 2 against the Browns.

    And this was against Ben Watson/Evan Moore and Seneca Wallace, not Brady and Gronkowski/Hernandez.

    Pagano has got to figure out how to neutralize this tactic which is leading to Ray Lewis being isolated and frankly picked on by opposing offenses. It's a guarantee Cincy is going to do the same thing this week. Hopefully it's just a matter of Ray's toe healing up...




  5. #41

    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    It really is a tough call, and it is close to that point where the extra step he gains by the study and knowledge of the D is being lost to more than a step of physical limitation. There have been plays this year that just wouldn't happen to him in the past. If it is the injury, hopefully a bye will help heal it up.

    If he really is slower though as much as everyone here wants to think his ego will not let him sit a few plays, I think it would. We all know he wants that 2nd ring, winning one for the teammates that have been here for a while, the ego boost of going out a champion. Even if he sits on a few 3rd and 8s it will still be "Ray's Defense".

    The question is, do the Ravens have schemes where the defense is better off with someone else at MLB or is Ray still the best option a step slower but adding that coordinator on the field value. Personally I believe the value he adds in play recognition against the playoff QBs likely to be seen puts the team in better position to make big plays or make fewer big mistakes, even at the risk of more 3rd down conversions




  6. #42
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    Smile Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by JMcNulty View Post
    It really is a tough call, and it is close to that point where the extra step he gains by the study and knowledge of the D is being lost to more than a step of physical limitation. There have been plays this year that just wouldn't happen to him in the past. If it is the injury, hopefully a bye will help heal it up.

    If he really is slower though as much as everyone here wants to think his ego will not let him sit a few plays, I think it would. We all know he wants that 2nd ring, winning one for the teammates that have been here for a while, the ego boost of going out a champion. Even if he sits on a few 3rd and 8s it will still be "Ray's Defense".

    The question is, do the Ravens have schemes where the defense is better off with someone else at MLB or is Ray still the best option a step slower but adding that coordinator on the field value. Personally I believe the value he adds in play recognition against the playoff QBs likely to be seen puts the team in better position to make big plays or make fewer big mistakes, even at the risk of more 3rd down conversions
    Solid 1st post. Welcome to the board... Bc




  7. #43

    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    It's almost time for Ngata Another Suggs to receive a Tough Talk for not backing up his opinion with facts.

    Ray has missed a few tackles but in the NFL it happens and has been a rising trend with the new rules that favor the offensive player.

    I fully trust what my eyes have seen from Ray during his return from the toe injury, that he will be just fine against whichever teams we play.

    UNLEASH THE BEASTS!!!!




  8. #44
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    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    Lewis- 19/27, 70.4%, 229 yards, 119 YAC, 0 TD, 1 INT, 6 PD, 80.6 QB Rating - 12.05 yds per COMPLETION, 6.2 of Which is YAC per Completion.

    EDIT RAY LEWIS: the majority of the damage done vs Ray has been in the last 2 games, since his toe injury

    Prior to that he was:

    14/21, 66.7%, 154 Yards, 89 YAC, 0 TD, 1 INT, 6 PD, 68.35 QB Rating

    And the majority of that damage was on 1 play in Week 1 (31 yard pass to Hines Ward w/ 16 YAC)


    Willis- 38/56, 67.9%, 333 yards, 204 YAC, 2 TD, 1 int, 12 PD, 87.9 QB Rating - 8.76 Per COMPLETION, 5.37 YAC per Comp

    Urlacher- 37/52, 71.2%, 365 yards, 222 YAC, 2 TD, 3 INT, 7 PD, 79.4 QB Rating -9.86 per comp, 6 yac pc

    Derrick Johnson- 35/49, 71.4%, 379 Yards, 306 YAC, 3 TD, 2 int, 9 PD, 97.2 QB Rating -10.83 pc, 8.74 yac pc

    Cushing- 33/44. 75%, 307 yards, 213 YAC, 1 TD, 2 INT, 5 PD, 82.3 QB Rating - 9.3 per comp, 6.45 yac pc

    I will update this soon with ray lewis compared to our other ILBs which will give a better indication of whether he shouldnt play on third down

    edit some more

    Dansby: 33/50, 66%, 333 Yards, 232 YAC, 0 TD, 1 INT, 76.5 QB Rating

    D'Qwell Jackson: 26/33, 78.8%, 285 Yards, 117 Yac, 2 TD, 1 INT, 110.2 QB Rating

    Paul Posluszny: 33/49, 67.3%, 387 Yards, 114 YAC, 3 TD, 2 INT, 94.5 QB Rating

    Sean Lee: 46/59, 78%, 466 Yards, 324 YAC, 3 TD, 4 INT, 88.3 QB Rating

    Desmond Bishop: 43/53, 81.1%, 522 Yards, 259 YAC, 2 TDs, 0 int, 120.3 QB Rating

    Lawrence Timmons: 18/23, 78.3%, 191 Yards, 140 YAC, 2 TD, 1 INT, 112.2 QB Rating
    Last edited by arnie_uk; 12-28-2011 at 12:06 PM.




  9. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMcNulty View Post
    It really is a tough call, and it is close to that point where the extra step he gains by the study and knowledge of the D is being lost to more than a step of physical limitation. There have been plays this year that just wouldn't happen to him in the past. If it is the injury, hopefully a bye will help heal it up.

    If he really is slower though as much as everyone here wants to think his ego will not let him sit a few plays, I think it would. We all know he wants that 2nd ring, winning one for the teammates that have been here for a while, the ego boost of going out a champion. Even if he sits on a few 3rd and 8s it will still be "Ray's Defense".

    The question is, do the Ravens have schemes where the defense is better off with someone else at MLB or is Ray still the best option a step slower but adding that coordinator on the field value. Personally I believe the value he adds in play recognition against the playoff QBs likely to be seen puts the team in better position to make big plays or make fewer big mistakes, even at the risk of more 3rd down conversions
    Agree with everything.

    Welcome to the boards! Can you get The Bunk and Rawls to start posting, too?
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  10. #46

    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by arnie_uk View Post
    Lewis- 19/27, 70.4%, 229 yards, 119 YAC, 0 TD, 1 INT, 6 PD, 80.6 QB Rating - 12.05 yds per COMPLETION, 6.2 of Which is YAC per Completion.

    Willis- 38/56, 67.9%, 333 yards, 204 YAC, 2 TD, 1 int, 12 PD, 87.9 QB Rating - 8.76 Per COMPLETION, 5.37 YAC per Comp

    Urlacher- 37/52, 71.2%, 365 yards, 222 YAC, 2 TD, 3 INT, 7 PD, 79.4 QB Rating -9.86 per comp, 6 yac pc

    Derrick Johnson- 35/49, 71.4%, 379 Yards, 306 YAC, 3 TD, 2 int, 9 PD, 97.2 QB Rating -10.83 pc, 8.74 yac pc

    Cushing- 33/44. 75%, 307 yards, 213 YAC, 1 TD, 2 INT, 5 PD, 82.3 QB Rating - 9.3 per comp, 6.45 yac pc

    I will update this soon with ray lewis compared to our other ILBs which will give a better indication of whether he shouldnt play on third down
    These are good statistics, thanks for providing them.

    This jives well with what I have seen, which is that Ray is often positioned well to defend a play (large number of PDs per target) and still tackles well to limit YAC (even if he's missed some as of late). That's the mental/technique aspect of Ray's game, which is at a very, very high level.

    However, if Ray is asked to cover somebody more than 5 or 10 yards beyond the LOS, he can't run with anybody (leads to high yards per completion). That's the physical aspect of Ray's game, which is obviously not at as high a level.

    All in all, I think Ray should come out on 3rd downs. On 1st and 2nd down, the Ravens are benefiting from Ray's knowledge because the other team has access to so much of their playbook. On 3rd down and especially 3rd and long (when the Ravens sub package comes onto the field) the offensive playbook is limited and athleticism is a little more important than pure play recognition. Obviously there's more to it than that, but it's worth pointing out.

    At some point you do reach a break-even point where no matter how otherwordly Ray's instincts and football acumen are, he just shouldn't be on the field because he can't play at the needed level. I think we're getting close, especially if what we've seen of Ray since returning from injury is what we're going to get (hoping that's not true).




  11. #47
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    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    Quote Originally Posted by Ngata Nother Suggs View Post
    All I can provide is a comment I'm sure everyone heard Harbaugh make about Ray pretty much deciding what Ray wants to do. I probably worded what I said wrong. It is more of a presumption that if the Ravens took Ray off the field on third down he would most likely throw a fit.
    Some humble advice to you then ... That's a debate fallacy then, provided you've taken something Ray has said and taken it out of context to suit this argument.

    From someone who has been here a while, you may want to up your game. Throwing stuff to the message board wall to see if it sticks is something for The Sun.

    You're going to get much further around here with direct quotes that are sourced -- and that's not directed at you but for everyone's eyes.
    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.




  12. #48
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    Re: Ray Lewis- Giving Him the Tough Talk

    None of this is my own work. Its from a member on another site.

    seems to be the popular notion that Ray Lewis is picked on by opposing QBs when in coverage and has been the biggest "liability" when he is out there.

    I wanted to test this theory and here is what I came up with:


    Basic Coverage Stats
    Ayanbadejo- 15/23, 65.2%, 98 Yards, 77 YAC, 0 TD, 0 int, 1 pd, 74.2 QB Rating (180 pass coverage snaps)

    Ellerbe- 8/10, 80%, 86 yards, 55 YAC, 0 td, 0 int, 0 pd, 102.5 QB Rating (92 pass coverage snaps)

    McClain- 25/35, 71.4%, 318 Yards, 166 YAC, 1 td, 1 int, 5 pd, 97.1 QB Rating (296 Pass coverage snaps)

    Lewis-19/27. 70.4%, 229 Yards, 119 YAC, 0 Tds, 1 int, 6 pd, 80.6 QB Ratings (333 Pass Coverage snaps)

    Completions per coverage snap
    Ayanbadejo- 180 coverage snaps/15 completions = 1 reception every 12 coverage snap

    Ellerbe- 92 snaps/8 receptions = 1 reception every 11.5 coverage snap

    McClain- 296 snaps/25 receptions = 1 reception every 11.84 coverage snap

    Lewis-333 snaps/19 receptions = 1 Reception every 17.52 coverage snaps

    Times targeted per coverage snap
    Ayanbadejo- 180 snaps/23 targets = 1 target every 7.82 coverage snaps

    Ellerbe- 92 snaps/10 targers = 1 target every 9.2 coverage snaps

    McClain- 296 snaps/35 targets= 1 target every 8.46 coverage snaps

    Lewis- 333 snaps/27 Targets = 1 Target every 12.3 coverage snaps

    So Lewis gets targeted the least per coverage snap by opposing QBs and gives up the fewest receptions per coverage snap yet he is the "biggest" liability on the field?

    Notes
    *Ellerbe does have a small sample size
    *Ayanbadejo has not been asked to cover a WR
    *Lewis has given up 2 receptions to WR that skew his numbers (Ward-31 yards/16 Yac in week 1, Cribbs-23 yards/9 YAC in week 16

    I like the work Ayanbadejo is doing and would continue to use him in his current role BUT Lewis hardly being "picked on". I also would continue to rush Lewis since he has graded out positively for ILB pass rushing wise w/ 10 QB Disruptions in 71 pass rush opportunities. The average for his position is a tick under 1 disruption every 8 pass rushes.




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