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  1. #31

    Re: Mark my words......



    Quote Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave View Post
    I dont agree with that. Ozzie schooled Phil Savage into giving up more than he wanted to for Quinn. Perhaps a little revenge for the Ngata extortion. But how are you going to get Quinn there w/o giving up a 1st round pick next year? It was posturing plain and simple.
    Last year Ozzie thought there was a risk Phil would trade out to someone else who would take Ngata. The 4th rounder was a modest investment to make sure we got our guy. Others have claimed we were ripped off, too, and I think you & they may be over-thinking an otherwise ordinary transaction.

    If we could have swapped up 9 or 10 spots in exchange for next year's 2d rounder to get Brady Quinn, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.* If the offer was something in that ballpark, why shouldn't Ozzie have made it? What would make that "posturing plain and simple"?

    * - Until I saw the penis-holding photo, thoughtfully linked on one of these threads, I think one of the ones about Troy Smith. Now I'm traumatized.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  2. #32

    Re: Mark my words......

    Quote Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave View Post
    Honestly, I think this is what bothered me about McNair. Whether it was as a Titan or a Ravens, I feel as though he is too often willing to throw short of the goal, whether is a 1st down or a touchdown.


    I can't stand seeing an offense not take its chances early on to give the defense a lead.


    The don't-lose offense worked when Jamal was good; and maybe it'll work again now with McGahee


    But when it came down to the passing game carrying us last year, it couldn't. Either the playcalling was weak, or McNair's arm looked dead, or his decision making was always throw 2-3 yards short of the 1st down or TD. Its frustrating.


    Add to that that if we hadn't signed him maybe we could have kept Pashos or AD, and that makes me question the signing.


    Really the argument comes down to whether you think the 13-3 record was more McNair or the amazing effort we got from the #1 defense in teh league. I'll take the latter over the former.


    Boller got the short end of the stick. Starting with bad o-lines, poor WRs, and years where Heap went down, Jamal went down / in jail, years when the defense underachieved because of a weak d-line and injuries to marquee players like Reed, Ray Lew, Boulware, etc.


    All QBs deal with scenarios that aren't ideal; but Boller definitely got the short end of the stick.


    Give him even just 4 more games to start with the Mason-Clayton-DWill-Heap combo and he'll produce; his last 10 starts show he can. Just open up the playbook.


    McNair has 1-2 more years before he retires a Tennessee Titan. I can't hop on that bandwagon, but if he starts for the Ravens, I'll support him.


    I was rocking a McNair away jersey at M&T for the home Loss to the Colts. However, haven't worn it since.


    Too much of the success or failure of this team is placed on the QB, be it Boller or McNair or Wright or Smith or whoever.

    Whether we as fans choose to recognize it or not, there are perhaps dozens of other players and coaches who ultimately contibute to the outcome of a season.

    I often wonder if ANY quarterback will ever get a fair shake in this town.




  3. #33

    Re: Mark my words......

    If we could have swapped up 9 or 10 spots in exchange for next year's 2d rounder to get Brady Quinn, I wouldn't have had a problem with that.* If the offer was something in that ballpark, why shouldn't Ozzie have made it? What would make that "posturing plain and simple"?

    Its posturing because a 2nd rounder this year or next year wouldn't equal the value of moving up 9 or 10 picks, and we all know Ozzie wouldn't give up a 1st. Our 2nd rounder this year was so late it was like an early third


    So why negotiate? To make sure Phil gives up his 1st to move up and get Quinn. Plain and simple. A 2nd rounder was never going to cut it, and we were never going to give up another 1st.


    And we were on the phone with Quinn, NOT the cowboys. Posturing, my friend.


    If I had to have Quinn is the 1st or second OR Smith in the 5th I would take Smith every time. And in both cases, I don't know what there exact role with the team would / will be in '07




  4. #34

    Re: Mark my words......

    So you say. It looks like overthinking, to me, not that you're the only one.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  5. #35

    Re: Mark my words......

    Actually, I messed up reading the chart. Looking at the draft value chart if we had traded away our 1st rounder and second rounder, that'd work . . .


    So maybe we'd have traded our 2nd for him . . . however, the Cowboys got much better value with the Browns trade than trading w/us.


    Guess I gotta admit that I was at least half wrong




  6. #36

    Re: Mark my words......

    Dave

    You're nothing if not persistent.

    Anything to believe that Ozzie wasn't interested in Quinn, right?

    I mean, it couldn't be that the Ravens know that Boller isn't in their plans and that a guy was falling in the draft that they liked.

    Nah, it was Ozzie "schooling" Phil Savage. Gimme a break.

    And it's obvious that you've never embraced McNair. What, with your constant whining about him really a Titan and him going back to Tennessee to retire a Titan.

    Who cares if we would've kept AD or Pashos this season if we hadn't signed McNair. What makes you think Boller would've all of sudden won more road games in one season then he had combined in his career.

    This whole thing that Boller would've done the same as McNair has gone over the ridiculous point.

    Please explain how McNair's arm "died 3 times last year". You love to point out the ONE (and only) thing Boller has over McNair. And that's arm strength. And it means nothing when you have zero pocket presence and just about zero poise. I sat and watched McNair hit Clayton streaking down the field in KC. The pass to Clayton in Pitt was a freakin laser on target. But yea, because Boller can throw the ball farther, he's a better option.

    There are many successful QBs both current and retired that have won huge games without having monster arms.

    The Boller experiment is all but over. You don't bring in an over 30 QB and sign him to a big contract if Boller is in your future plans. You just don't. They could've signed a vet backup this time last year but opted not to. Ozzie and Co. haven't offered Boller any sort of contract. Why do you think that is? You would think they would've offered a 2 or 3 year extension by now, don't you?

    Boller as a backup to McNair right now is certainly our best option. I certainly don't think Troy Smith will offer us anything more than what Boller can.

    It really comes down to this. I cannot for the life of me see how anyone can say that they think Boller is gonna have a fine career after the play we've seen from him.

    PP




  7. #37
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    Re: Mark my words......

    In the 20s Quinn was a great value pick so Ozzie was interested. We had a deal with KC right behind Dallas. We might have had a deal with Dallas as well. Forget the value of our picks against either the Cowboys' or Chiefs' pick, we couldn't possibly top the value of C-choke's high rounders. Our first rounder is barely worth more than their second. That is where the value is.

    All I was saying is, we don't have to agree Boller is a bust as a pro quarterback to agree this is his last year as a Raven. Doesn't make sense for him to stay, doesn't make sense for us to extend him when we have McNair around for a couple more years.
    It makes a lot of sense if McNair is retiring at the end of this year. Even if he stays through 2008, that is probably the end of the road. The team will go through a rebuilding phase in 2008 though so I won't be surprised to see McNair retire. This is his, JO's and possibly a few other guys (Ray?) last hurrah at a SB run.

    If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I can see us giving him a deal with a modest bonus, essentially a 1-2 year deal with options for us that give him a nice bonus if he sticks. I just don't see him being such a hot commodity that a modest deal won't keep him here and given McNair's age and the fact that we have almost nothing invested in somebody else I can definitely seeing him coming back.

    If one of the young guys really looks good in pre-season and we are definitely rebuilding in 2008 I can see Ozzie rolling the dice and letting Boller go.

    But in all reality, given that we have no real investment in anybody else I see Boller staying as fairly likely.

    I mean, it couldn't be that the Ravens know that Boller isn't in their plans and that a guy was falling in the draft that they liked.
    I think they liked Quinn's value there and they liked the idea of shoring up the spot and giving our future at the position much better security (likelihood that we had a guy in house between Boller or Quinn) but if we REALLY, REALLY wanted Quinn and/or were definite Boller was gone we would have gotten that deal done.

    I don't think it was done to school Savage, the calls were because it was a position where the future is uncertain and there was a value in picking him there. That being said I see it as Ozzie not thinking the cubard was so bare (Boller) that he HAD to do something. I think you both are reading it wrong. Quinn had good value at that pick and Boller isn't a sure thing. If Boller was definitely gone I think we make the move. But I also think Ozzie had interest in Quinn there to give him more comfort on the future.




  8. #38

    Re: Mark my words......

    Outstanding analysis, Sir Greg. I yield & would like now to discuss something other than quarterbacks.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  9. #39

    Re: Mark my words......

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    In the 20s Quinn was a great value pick so Ozzie was interested. We had a deal with KC right behind Dallas. We might have had a deal with Dallas as well. Forget the value of our picks against either the Cowboys' or Chiefs' pick, we couldn't possibly top the value of C-choke's high rounders. Our first rounder is barely worth more than their second. That is where the value is.


    It makes a lot of sense if McNair is retiring at the end of this year. Even if he stays through 2008, that is probably the end of the road. The team will go through a rebuilding phase in 2008 though so I won't be surprised to see McNair retire. This is his, JO's and possibly a few other guys (Ray?) last hurrah at a SB run.

    If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I can see us giving him a deal with a modest bonus, essentially a 1-2 year deal with options for us that give him a nice bonus if he sticks. I just don't see him being such a hot commodity that a modest deal won't keep him here and given McNair's age and the fact that we have almost nothing invested in somebody else I can definitely seeing him coming back.

    If one of the young guys really looks good in pre-season and we are definitely rebuilding in 2008 I can see Ozzie rolling the dice and letting Boller go.

    But in all reality, given that we have no real investment in anybody else I see Boller staying as fairly likely.


    I think they liked Quinn's value there and they liked the idea of shoring up the spot and giving our future at the position much better security (likelihood that we had a guy in house between Boller or Quinn) but if we REALLY, REALLY wanted Quinn and/or were definite Boller was gone we would have gotten that deal done.

    I don't think it was done to school Savage, the calls were because it was a position where the future is uncertain and there was a value in picking him there. That being said I see it as Ozzie not thinking the cubard was so bare (Boller) that he HAD to do something. I think you both are reading it wrong. Quinn had good value at that pick and Boller isn't a sure thing. If Boller was definitely gone I think we make the move. But I also think Ozzie had interest in Quinn there to give him more comfort on the future.
    I see your point Greg.

    But I also don't think we had the ammunition to get a deal done unless we REALLY mortgaged the future and that wasn't gonna happen. That, at least to me, is why we didn't get Quinn.

    My point is that the fact that they were interested shows that they don't believe Boller is the future at QB for this team. Boller is still very young and should be the future but I think that shipped has sailed. Hey, I could be completely wrong. The only scenario I see where he's a Raven next year is him starting at least 8 games this season and showing HUGE improvement. Call me a pessimist if you will, but I certainly don't see that happening.

    Let's face it, McNair has at MOST, 2 years left. That leaves Boller as the only QB with any NFL experience. Yet the FO hasn't thrown any sort of offer his way.

    Why not throw that short term deal with a modest bonus out right now? IMO, it's because they are ready to cut ties at the end of the year and move in a new direction.

    This team will be alot different this time next season. However, with the young talent we've drafted and are developing along with the addition of McGahee, we'll be more in the mode of "transitioning" than "rebuilding".

    PP




  10. #40

    Re: Mark my words......

    PP,

    I'm assuming you missed the post where I said I read my draft pick value chart wrong and admitted I was wrong.


    That said, Greg's analysis is probably the most on point I've read so far. Except I wouldn't say we had a deal with Dallas done. KC, maybe, that makes a lot of sense.


    In any case, we'll see what happens with McNair next year. Our o-line could either be much improved or regress from last year. And we're one injury away from being particularly thin at tackle, despite our now impressive depth in the interior of the line.


    In terms of the Ravens not offering Boller a contract yet . . . that only makes sense.


    He's far from a sure thing. And it makes the most sense to keep your options open to draft players (Quinn, etc) or sign FA's. Shit, the Ravens have just now said they're making an effort to resign Suggs, and he's a probowler at this position.


    Besides, what better than a contract year and probably a few chances to relieve McNair to motivate Boller's level of play. We saw how he ended off 2005 being on the hot seat a bit.


    But you're right, my gut feeling is that ship has sailed. But you know me, I dont want it to. Once Boller leaves I think we're in QB purgatory for another 5-10 years.




  11. #41

    Re: Mark my words......

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    I see your point Greg.

    But I also don't think we had the ammunition to get a deal done unless we REALLY mortgaged the future and that wasn't gonna happen. That, at least to me, is why we didn't get Quinn.
    PP
    I gotta agree. I believe we offerred #29 + #61... but that wasn't nearly enough. #29 and next years first was not more then CLE gave... It may have taken THREE firsts from us, or #29, #61 AND next years first. That's not close to worth it, you wait that storm out, especially thinking that one of Stanton, Beck or Kolb would make it to #61... I believe that was the plan once Quinn became unavailable. It is obvious that Edwards was never an option in the Raven's war room. I think Troy ended up being the type of pick where they were sick of skipping past him to fill a need, so they gave in and took him for GREAT value.
    The end is all but here for Boller. I agree that if he starts half a dozen regular season games and plays well, that he has a chance for an extension, but a playoff win would secure it. In all likley-hood he will go somewhere to backup an older star, or a rookie. Troy smith could indeed be our backup, as could a Griese type that shakes loose.




  12. #42

    Re: Mark my words......

    Quote Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave View Post
    PP,

    I'm assuming you missed the post where I said I read my draft pick value chart wrong and admitted I was wrong.


    That said, Greg's analysis is probably the most on point I've read so far. Except I wouldn't say we had a deal with Dallas done. KC, maybe, that makes a lot of sense.


    In any case, we'll see what happens with McNair next year. Our o-line could either be much improved or regress from last year. And we're one injury away from being particularly thin at tackle, despite our now impressive depth in the interior of the line.


    In terms of the Ravens not offering Boller a contract yet . . . that only makes sense.


    He's far from a sure thing. And it makes the most sense to keep your options open to draft players (Quinn, etc) or sign FA's. Shit, the Ravens have just now said they're making an effort to resign Suggs, and he's a probowler at this position.


    Besides, what better than a contract year and probably a few chances to relieve McNair to motivate Boller's level of play. We saw how he ended off 2005 being on the hot seat a bit.


    But you're right, my gut feeling is that ship has sailed. But you know me, I dont want it to. Once Boller leaves I think we're in QB purgatory for another 5-10 years.

    Suggs and Boller are apples and oranges. Suggs is gonna command a HUGE deal here or somewhere else. And the Ravens are in negotiations right now.

    They aren't with Boller.

    Boller's level of play has never been consistent. You can point to the 2 games at the end of 05 but the last game was horrendous. We've gone over this before and it's like beating a dead horse now.

    You think Boller can still be something in this league. I don't.

    However, I do want him here as our backup this season because he is our best option as of now.

    Things could change, but I doubt it.

    PP




  13. #43
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    Re: Mark my words......

    They haven't signed Boller because they don't have to. He isn't a hot commodity so no need to lock him down. Ozzie isn't going to make any commitment he doesn't have to.

    If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I see him coming back. No way is 8 needed given the last 8 games. Take a look at his last 8 games, add another 3-4 good performances and you have 3/4 of a very good season. At that point he becomes valuable. I think there's something to be said about how he practices and his intangibles as well. If the rest of the team has no faith in him and he practices weak he could be gone regardless of what we see (barring flat out barn-burner performances in a handfull of games). And to some degree the reverse might be true, solid practices and a team that has faith with a handfull of competent performances might bring him back.

    If he were definitely gone there is NO WAY this team waits until the 5th round for value at the position given they have nothing of but hope available in 2-3 years. If we got a guy on the first day I might buy in, but throwing a low rounder at a guy on a wing and a prayer ... eh, I just don't buy Boller being gone. Not until we have some reason to believe we have at least one QB who has a shot to be a starter in 3 years. We have nobody else on the roster you can say has a realistic shot. Smith? It's a flyer pick. Who knows, maybe you strike gold, roll 40 passes in a row, pick a trifecta and hit the Lotto and the kid is the next Tom Brady. But you don't leave that as your only option in 2-3 years. I ain't buying it.




  14. #44

    Re: Mark my words......

    Suggs and Boller are apples and oranges.

    Read my original post. I agree, thats exactly what I was saying. This franchise takes its time to resign players, even players who play at probowl levels.

    Why would Boller, who's a ?, be ahead on the resign list?

    We're on the same page here.


    We have until next years free agency period to see what happens with our QB position. Until then, I think its clear Boller is the backup to McNair, and Smith is someone who was a good value in the 5th round who COULD be a starter if he overcomes a few things.




  15. #45

    Re: Mark my words......

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    They haven't signed Boller because they don't have to. He isn't a hot commodity so no need to lock him down. Ozzie isn't going to make any commitment he doesn't have to.

    If Boller plays 3-4 games and looks good I see him coming back. No way is 8 needed given the last 8 games. Take a look at his last 8 games, add another 3-4 good performances and you have 3/4 of a very good season. At that point he becomes valuable. I think there's something to be said about how he practices and his intangibles as well. If the rest of the team has no faith in him and he practices weak he could be gone regardless of what we see (barring flat out barn-burner performances in a handfull of games). And to some degree the reverse might be true, solid practices and a team that has faith with a handfull of competent performances might bring him back.

    If he were definitely gone there is NO WAY this team waits until the 5th round for value at the position given they have nothing of but hope available in 2-3 years. If we got a guy on the first day I might buy in, but throwing a low rounder at a guy on a wing and a prayer ... eh, I just don't buy Boller being gone. Not until we have some reason to believe we have at least one QB who has a shot to be a starter in 3 years. We have nobody else on the roster you can say has a realistic shot. Smith? It's a flyer pick. Who knows, maybe you strike gold, roll 40 passes in a row, pick a trifecta and hit the Lotto and the kid is the next Tom Brady. But you don't leave that as your only option in 2-3 years. I ain't buying it.
    Believe me, Im not sold on Smith at all. He's worth the risk where we got him but anything we get out of him in the future (I don't expect anything this season) is a bonus.

    As far as the QB situation next season. There are a ton of things that can happen between now and then. McNair could retire or he could be back. Smith could turn into a viable heir apparent or fall completely on his face. We could draft a guy high next year to be groomed under McNair if he decides to stick around.

    I just honestly think that the Ravens aren't close to being sold on Boller and that is a big reason why no contract offer has been made. Could they sign him to a short term deal after next season? Sure, they could. I just don't see it happening. He'll be a F/A next year and might just want to get the hell outta here. I can't say I'd blame him.

    Who knows what kind of F/A QBs will be out there as well.

    All in all, we could have a very different looking QB situation a year from now.

    I just hope we're satisified with the way the 07 season turned out.

    PP




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