Bengals Stadium Deal one of the Worst Ever

**chicagoravensfan** · 07-12-2011, 03:49 PM

The WSJ article also says that Mike Brown leveraged an offer from Baltimore to get his sweet deal with the county. Ouch!

**Mista T** · 07-12-2011, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Silver

Yeah, I read that in the break room today, F'd up really. Funny how nice M&T is compared to a lot of the stadiums built around the same time.

If you say so..... I rank our stadium around the middle of the pack for stadia built in the 1990s.

I prefer Paul Brown to M&T, overall, for several reasons: better club section, easier freeway access, closer to the commercial district, overhang over the top deck for shade and partial windbreak. The waterfront location is great, but it an get brutally cold there.

I also prefer Lincoln -- better freeway and subway access, great food, angled seats inside the 30s face the center of the field for better viewing.

Heinz is fairly ugly, with all the steel beams showing. And cheap: bench seats in the end zone. Double edge sword about its 3 rivers location: great access via ferry boat, but those swirling winds impact FGs.

I somewhat agree with you about FedEx, but it's not as bad as many Baltimoreans make it out to be. It has some features that we lack: huge club section concourse with a gazzillion HDTVs and bars, plexiglass rails instead of steel tubes to allow full sightlines, better restaurant selection throughout the stadium, and, of course, upper deck escalators. FedEx will always rank towards the bottom of NFL stadia because of all the obstructed view seats packed in, and inadequate transportation infrastructure. Plus it is the ugliest sports venue on this side of the Atlantic.

Charlotte's stadium is well located for access, but too far from the commercial center (It's dead on weekends there, anyway). One thing I like about Xharlotte is that it's not so tall, so upper deck seats are closer to the action. btw: Anyone else attend the 2002 game there, when the huge rat ran onto the field, delaying the game? One of the funniest things I ever saw at an NFL game, as players tried to chase the critter off the field.

Georgia Dome is very spartan for a domed stadium. Not close enough to the commercial district, and very limited tailgating area. It should have been built at the Atlanta-Fulton County stadium site.

Jax is just a rebuilt Gator Bowl, with narrow concourses. Great location, however, along the St. John's River and 3/4 mile walk to downtown.

Can't comment about Cleveland because I've never been - and don't plan to go to that shit-hole town again!

**HoustonRaven** · 07-12-2011, 04:55 PM

I am not a fan of M&T from a strict stadium standpoint.

Of course, I like it out of a home team sense, but as for as modern stadia go, it's lacking in a lot of key areas. I agree with T's assesment.

I can think of 5-7 off the top of my head that are far better:

1. Reliant Stadium
2. Cowboys Stadium
2. U of Phoenix Stadium
4. The Link
5. Soldier Field

**Captain Silver** · 07-12-2011, 05:48 PM

I was basing my FedEx opinion off some friends that have 8 season seats and went to M&T, they said M&T blows it out of the water.

**Ravenswintitle** · 07-12-2011, 06:23 PM

there is no reason that team shouldn't compete with Pitt and Baltimore on many levels - other than the owner, that is.

**DarthCorvax** · 07-12-2011, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by HoustonRaven

IIRC, M&T Bank was built for just over $200 Million and it's construction was partially financed by the Lottery.

IIRC, M&T was indeed partially financed by the Lottery. I think they had scratch offs ready to go the moment the move was publicly announced.

Not sure the whole thing's been paid for, but as I understand, the Ravens paying for the upkeep means it costs the state less money than OP&CY (I think the team paid for the new state-of-the-art jumbotrons, whereas the state paid for the new one at OP&CY). And the Ravens do see a portion of proceeds from outside events.

Interesting note about the difference in the level of government trying to pay the upkeep. IIRC, the MD Stadium Authority was created partially in response to Irsay taking the team with him. He was ostensibly negotiating with WDS but City Comptroller Hyman Pressman was throwing a wrench in the works. I don't think it would have mattered, that he was leaving anyway, but a city negotiating in the terms of dollars they were talking was difficult, especially for Baltimore of that time.

The worst part was that in the end, it wasn't just the residents of the city who lost out; the Colts had fans from York, PA all the way to Ocean City. WDS was negotiating money primarily from Baltimore City, but was in essence, representing the interests of Colts fans from all over MD (and elsewhere, though PA residents don't pay any MD taxes aside from sales tax). The creation of the MD Stadium Authority reflected that fact and now the cost can be spread out more, even among Steelers fans out in far Western Maryland. Thanks for the support.

There's a story I remember reading on the other board that even the BaltCo Executive at the time flew out to Chicago to reason with Irsay (not that reasoning was possible with Irsay, IMO). The Colts weren't just a local Baltimore City issue and the Ravens certainly are not today (and probably are one of the few issues that you can get Central and NE MD people to agree on).

The irony is that even as recently as last year or a couple of years ago, Indy as a city still hadn't finished paying the bill for building their original crappy dome, even as they finished building the 2nd one and were still, IIRC, giving the team guaranteed sellout payments (though I'm sure they've been fewer in the Manning era). Regardless, the city was still paying on the old stadium, last I checked, even after its demolition and conversion into a parking lot.

That Bengals deal was a terrible deal for the local people in Cinci and it sucks that we had to be used as a bargaining chip, but that was the position we were in, unfortunately. I agree that these types of deals will be few and far between in especially the near future, though I doubt you'll see as many owners taking on large development deals like Bob Kraft did with Patriot Place. Even the Giants and Jets didn't and they spent a boatload of cash each to build NMS.

Having said that, I think there have been studies that have shown a positive economic benefit from our two stadiums. Now if PGA and AM will do something so OP&CY will be filled again, we'll hopefully see more as that area will hopefully get the slots and more development (though the Hilton Hotel blocking views from OP&CY was incredibly stupid. Thanks MOM). They're working to get more events into M&T. This Harbor BS on the 4th hurts but hopefully nothing like that will happen when they have their auto race.

BTW, I love the name Great American Ballpark. Reminds me of the Great Western Forum. Iconic names, though the teams that played in the latter are far more iconic than the team that plays in the former.

Originally Posted by GOTA

They were 2 completely different deals done years apart. Think Camden Yards and M&T. In fact the Bengals are the 'property managers' for Paul Brown Stadium which originally was not part of the deal. But they yelled and threatened and the county agreed to it.

I believe the Browns were also 'property managers' for Cleveland Municipal Stadium before 1996.

Originally Posted by Mista T

I also prefer Lincoln -- better freeway and subway access, great food, angled seats inside the 30s face the center of the field for better viewing.

Heinz is fairly ugly, with all the steel beams showing. And cheap: bench seats in the end zone. Double edge sword about its 3 rivers location: great access via ferry boat, but those swirling winds impact FGs.

I've been to games at the Vet and the Citizens Bank ballpark and to Monday Night Raw at their arena and the difference is ours were plopped down into the "old city" part of town, whereas theirs are down near the marine terminal (and airport) in more modernized parts of town, making local access roads wider and more plentiful. You need to carry food out of the stadium to eat as you wait to get out of M&T, unless you plan to take a nap.

I like the Heinz beams as a metaphor for their city's heritage. I've been to PNC Park and views across the river are fantastic. I guess any seats in the football stadium with those same views are good, too.

**HoustonRaven** · 07-13-2011, 11:25 AM

And now it looks like the county is going to spend even more money on the facility via a new instant replay machine ..... costing over $300,000.

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/2...|topnews|text|

**BaltimoreRon** · 07-14-2011, 04:55 PM

Originally Posted by GOTA

Meanwhile they had their first NASCAR event at the Kentucky Speedway which is not far from Cincinnati. They drew 107,000 people to the event. That proves that if you give sports fans something they want to see they will support it.

And the reviews are in: http://www.nascar.com/news/110711/ke...nse/index.html