Will Heap make HOF like Mackey?

[wickedsolo]

Witten: 8 seasons, 7 pro bowls and 2 all-pro teams, 600+ catches for 7000 yards and 36 touchdowns.

Clark: 8 seasons, 1 pro bowl and 1 all-pro team, 393 catches for 4500 yards and 44 touchdowns.

Witten also actually blocks, something you'll rarely see from Clark. Not to mention Clark has an all-time great QB throwing to him.

In addition - Gates: 8 seasons, 7 pro bowls and 3 all-pro teams, 500+ catches for 7000 yards and 69 touchdowns.

Since 2003 when all three entered the league, Gates has represented the AFC and Witten the NFC as the premier TEs in the NFL outside of Gonz.

I'd say you're way overselling Clark and underselling both Witten and Gates.

Clark also has a ring, 44 TD's, and has been on one of the more "popular" teams of the past decade. As much as we'd like to think that stuff doesn't play a part in it, I don't think we can say that it doesn't.

I didn't look at the numbers, so I can see why there is an argument for Witten.

To me, TE is just one of those positions that's not very flashy, so you have a lot of great players who don't get the recognition that they may deserve. Jay Novacek is a great example of this. 5 time pro-bowler, 5-time all pro, 3 time super bowl champion, college HOF. Shannon Sharpe is another one. 3 Super Bowls, 10,000+ yards receiving, 4 time all pro, all decade team, 8 time pro bowler, etc. He was passed over the first time he went up for the HOF and I'd argue he's probably one of the most popular TE's of all time.

I just think for a TE you either need ridiculous stats (like Gonzalez) or good stats in combination with super bowl rings.

After looking at the numbers I can definitely see why Witten's name is tossed in there. I didn't realize he had such high numbers.

[AirFlacco]

Ditto.

I'd take Heap over Cooley as well.

And even though I definitely consider Witten to be one of the premier TE's in the game right now, I don't see how he's anywhere near contention for HOF talks.

Right now there are only two who I think should be up for consideration once they retire: Gonzalez & Clark.

A lot of people think Dickson is going to be a good TE once he gets the
job.

Remember Gronkowski? Bellicheat wanted him really bad and got him
in front of Ozzie. He was scared Ozzie wanted him knowing he needed a
TE. Bellicheat also wanted Ray Rice and was shocked when Ozzie got
him. NE was shocked because we had McGahee but CAM wanted two RBs.

So Bellicheat wasn't going to let Ozzie beat him out of Gronk. Remember all
the confusion when they were on the clock and Goodell went down to
straighten them out.

Turns out, Gronk wasn't even on Ozzie's radar, just like Nicks wasn't.
Ozzie wanted Dickson and Pitta all along and they should be pretty good but
Gronk did hurt us up there last year and had a couple of other big plays.

Does anyone think we should have drafted Gronkowski? Ozzie could have drafted
him at bottom of first instead of trading out for Kindle.

Gronk could have been mentioned for the pro bowl as a rookie. BTW, McCourty, Rice's teammate at
Rutgers was the guy most of us wanted as Ravens needed DBs last year as we saw and Ozzie passed
on him trading down to get Kindle.

McCourty played well vs us and made the pro bowl. Another great draft for NE.


http://boston.sbnation.com/new-engla...on-meriweather

[Irish Raven]

I wasn't realy following Gronkowski last year.

But the year before for 2009 Draft I convinced myself we were going to draft Jermaine Gresham, TE now for the Bengals

I fell in love with the guy (ya know what I mean!) and watched all his tape and read up about him.
I suppose a lot of others were looking at Dez Bryant too

Went to the Bengals with the 21st pick, Ozzie traded out of the 25 for the Broncos and here we are today

[AirFlacco]

Yea, I remember him and had both Gresham and Kindle in the top 20 in
my board. Bungles got him as you say. Ozzie liked Gresham too and probably
would have drafted him had he been there.

Remember Pettigrew in the Oher draft? Ozzie liked him and a lot of us on
this board wanted him. He kept dropping and we kept hoping. Then DET
took Pettigrew instead of Oher when their new rookie QB, STafford needed
protection. Just didn't make sense and Stafford was injured his rookie
year too. DET always takes receivers in the first round.

Gresham, Gronk or Pettigrew would have been great replacements for Heap.

[Strange Bru]

The problem with Todd Heap vs John Mackey is that even if Todd's stats mirror Mackey's exactly, someone who is in the HOF, he won't make the HOF. The reason being is that Mackey revolutionized the TE position while Heap played the position 40 years later. Much like trying to compare Unitas to Manning, if a QB had Unitas' stats today they wouldn't be nearly impressive some 50 years later.

[wickedsolo]

Air - I definitely would have loved Gronkowski. I thought he was one of the purest TE's to come out in a long time. He's like Jason Witten with speed. The problem with Gronk coming out of Arizona was his back. The guy had multiple years of back issues. Things like that don't just go away, so I wouldn't be surprised to see Gronk dealing with some of those injuries coming back at him in the near future.

I liked the Ed Dickson pick because he's a wide receiver in a 250lb body. He's not a great blocker, but I think Ozzie saw Dickson and Pitta as guys who could sincerely contribute in 2-3 years and not their rookie year. Also, we didn't really run a lot of multiple TE sets, but when Dickson got the opportunity to make a play he did. I can only think of one time when he didn't.

New England had no TE's at all, so getting a guy who could contribute right away was very important for them. For us, we still had and have Heap, so we could take a chance on a guy with upside who still needed some development.

I don't think we can fault Ozzie for trading out and taking Kindle. No one could have predicted what happened to him and we needed a pure pass rushing OLB and Kindle was a top rated talent who fell. Prior to bumping his noggin Kindle was doing pretty well in camp and looked like he would be able to contribute on passing downs and in certain packages.

[Dave Lap]

If Heap played for Indianapolis or the Pats his whole career I think he'd be a lock for the HOF.

But with Boller, Stoney Case, etc. as QB-I think even Gates would have a hard time getting in.

[Dave Lap]

Air - I liked the Ed Dickson pick because he's a wide receiver in a 250lb body. He's not a great blocker, but I think Ozzie saw Dickson and Pitta as guys who could sincerely contribute in 2-3 years and not their rookie year. Also, we didn't really run a lot of multiple TE sets, but when Dickson got the opportunity to make a play he did. I can only think of one time when he didn't.

I don't think we can fault Ozzie for trading out and taking Kindle. No one could have predicted what happened to him and we needed a pure pass rushing OLB and Kindle was a top rated talent who fell. Prior to bumping his noggin Kindle was doing pretty well in camp and looked like he would be able to contribute on passing downs and in certain packages.

I like the Ed Dickson pick too, and I may be wrong cause I haven't seen him enough to be 100% sure, but I think Pitta will even better.

Agree that Ozzie shouldn't be faulted for the Kindle pick. There's always an element of risk with any draft pick. I know Kindle had some issues prior to the draft but most everyone does have issues of some kind or another whether they be off the field or performance related.

[BLSmokey]

I think even Gates would have a hard time getting in.

Because he's a purely receiving TE, his numbers have to be above and beyond to warrant consideration. However, he's only 30. He's around 3 healthy years away from hitting 10,000 yards and 100 TDs. While he'll never reach TG's production from catches/yards unless he plays until 36 or 37, his TD numbers should easily eclipse the 88 Gonz currently sits at.

I think because he's such a special/unique player and a matchup nightmare, Gates has a good shot. That being said, TE is one of the toughest positions to make it into the HOF, so who knows.

[Beau Petard]

Air--
To address your initial post, my opinion is that Heap will probably not make the HOF, and may not even be nominated (after he retires). IMHO, that doesn't imply that he's not a quality TE, and it doesn't denigrate his stats. I think that Mackey's efforts were a greater contribution to the BALTIMORE Colts successes than Heap's were/are to the Ravens, and to me, that is a big factor separating them for the honor. I also agree with the idea that Mackey really revolutionized the position, and that adds to his qualifications.

[psuasskicker]

The Hall of Fame has devolved into the Hall of Pretty Good.

That said, I still can't envision Heap making it in. His durability is his biggest liability and the voters will remember it, rightfully so.

Why do you think it's just the Hall of Pretty Good? I actually think they may not allow enough players in each season. Who has gotten in over the last decade that hasn't deserved it?

Great points everyone, but I'd take Heap over Shockey any day.

Not saying that Heap isn't better than all those guys. He's certainly better than some of them. The problem is, there's nothing that distinguishes him from them, unlike Gonzo, Sharpe and Gates. To be a HoF player, you need to distinguish yourself from the other really good players at your position. Heap hasn't done that.

- C -

[NCRAVEN]

Why do you think it's just the Hall of Pretty Good? I actually think they may not allow enough players in each season. Who has gotten in over the last decade that hasn't deserved it?

MY only problem with the HOF is that you HAVE to select a certain amount each year, including guys from back in the day.

Two guys that come to mind of good but not great would be Rickey Jackson and Richard Dent... Again GOOD, but not GREAT.