"One #NFL Coach- "The #Ravens have a chance now with #Pagano. The other guy (#Mattison) didn't know what he was doing."

[RavenScallywag]

The give take from 2005-2008; +1
The give take from 2009-2010; +17

Please this is ridiculos to blame a DC when the FO since we drafted Ngata did nada to upgrade the D.

The ratio is probably more indicative of our fixing of the turnovers on offense rather than our D forcing more turnovers.

I wouldn't say they've done NOTHING to upgrade the D...

2007 - 4th round - Antwaan Barnes
2008 - 3rd round - Tavares Gooden
2008 - 3rd round - Tom Zbikowski
2008 - Free agent - Jim Leonhard
2008 - Free agent - Brandon McKinney
2008 - Trade - Fabian Washington
2009 - 2nd round - Paul Kruger
2009 - 3rd round - Lardarius Webb
2009 - Free agent - Domonique Foxworth
2010 - 2nd round - Sergio Kindle
2010 - 2nd round - Terrence Cody
2010 - Free agent - Cory Redding
2010 - Trade - Josh Wilson

That's excluding 5th-7th round, which means you cut out Haruki and Jason Phillips. Maybe not every move made a huge splash, but each of those guys was brought in to fill a role on the team, defensively, exception maybe Leonhard who they signed for ST but he blossomed into a D star.

[Dont Know]

2007 - 4th round - Antwaan Barnes
2008 - 3rd round - Tavares Gooden
2008 - 3rd round - Tom Zbikowski
2008 - Free agent - Jim Leonhard
2008 - Free agent - Brandon McKinney
2008 - Trade - Fabian Washington
2009 - 2nd round - Paul Kruger
2009 - 3rd round - Lardarius Webb
2009 - Free agent - Domonique Foxworth
2010 - 2nd round - Sergio Kindle
2010 - 2nd round - Terrence Cody
2010 - Free agent - Cory Redding
2010 - Trade - Josh Wilson

What stands out after reading that list more than anything is their inability to develop any draft picks in recent years into starters on D. Zbikowski and Webb being the closest to breaking into the lineup, but still. That is a very poor record of developing draft picks.

[elland]

The ratio is probably more indicative of our fixing of the turnovers on offense rather than our D forcing more turnovers.

I wouldn't say they've done NOTHING to upgrade the D...

2007 - 4th round - Antwaan Barnes
2008 - 3rd round - Tavares Gooden
2008 - 3rd round - Tom Zbikowski
2008 - Free agent - Jim Leonhard
2008 - Free agent - Brandon McKinney
2008 - Trade - Fabian Washington
2009 - 2nd round - Paul Kruger
2009 - 3rd round - Lardarius Webb
2009 - Free agent - Domonique Foxworth
2010 - 2nd round - Sergio Kindle
2010 - 2nd round - Terrence Cody
2010 - Free agent - Cory Redding
2010 - Trade - Josh Wilson

That's excluding 5th-7th round, which means you cut out Haruki and Jason Phillips. Maybe not every move made a huge splash, but each of those guys was brought in to fill a role on the team, defensively, exception maybe Leonhard who they signed for ST but he blossomed into a D star.

Name just one huge splash.. and this is my point there is no improvements to our starting lineup. None, and except from Kindle who did you really think would be an huge splash when we got them?

Btw you are rigth our O helped improve the turnover stat, the D did create more turnovers in 2009 and 2010 than in 2005 and 2007 and less in 2006 and 2008.

[psuasskicker]

What stands out after reading that list more than anything is their inability to develop any draft picks in recent years into starters on D. Zbikowski and Webb being the closest to breaking into the lineup, but still. That is a very poor record of developing draft picks.

Yeah, definitely this. Webb will likely be a capable starter at some point. No one else on that list can be counted on. Yes, it's possible Kindle and/or Cody do and maybe someone else breaks out. But certainly no one's shown the potential to be a likely starter at this point, nevermind a Pro Bowl caliber player.

That's a big problem, and I think it's frankly pretty impressive that this defense has been able to stay as good as it has for that time, given the lack of talent.

I've written a lot about this lack of talent already.

- C -

[NCRAVEN]

That's a big problem, and I think it's frankly pretty impressive that this defense has been able to stay as good as it has for that time, given the lack of talent.

I think this has a lot do to with great leadership on the field. That and while they haven't developed any they still do have a superstar at every level.

[Greg]

The give take from 2005-2008; +1
The give take from 2009-2010; +17

Please this is ridiculos to blame a DC when the FO since we drafted Ngata did nada to upgrade the D.

I like the way you conveniently picked the first set of years to compare, and based on what?

Why differential, why not just number of turn overs per year? Why include the offense?

[psuasskicker]

I like the way you conveniently picked the first set of years to compare, and based on what?

Mattison vs. Ryan

[elland]

I like the way you conveniently picked the first set of years to compare, and based on what?

Why differential, why not just number of turn overs per year? Why include the offense?

You also said; Under Mattison the turn-overs weren't there and he couldn't close out games holding leads. Is the offense partly to blame? Sure. But so is the defense. They were gassed at the end of games, perhaps because he didn't rotate the DL enough or whatever.

My argument they were there! It was not great combined with the O and ST it did enough!

True I used the take and give, and true our D were gassed, maybe the TOP had something to do with that, anyway the give/take was the most telling story I thougth, if you would like to know why our team is a winning team.

Obviously the O is a factor here, and you have to give Harbaugh (and Cam and Mattison) some credit, his Ravens force is: The 3 units is working better now than never, and one interesting stat from 2010, was how we did after the give/take, we scored much more points than the opponents. Another interesting thing from 2010, was our turnaround in penalties, and especially the DPIs.

Our offense is still not great, our defense better than I would expect before last season, anyhow it is hard to argue that our defense is not degressing on talent. Hopefully our offense will soon compensate for that.

Again I am not crazy about Mattison, I do find it hard to blame him.. And I like better the new choice, Pagano, however still we need to upgrade this D fast and please give me some regularity in the secondary!

You are not satiesfied with 2005-2008, well go back and see, maybe you better like the stats from previous years.

Lewis 96-01; -8 (96-98; -23 and 99-01; +15)
Nolan 02-04; +13
Ryan 05-08; +1
Mattison 09-10; +17

[Corey]

The give take from 2005-2008; +1
The give take from 2009-2010; +17

Please this is ridiculos to blame a DC when the FO since we drafted Ngata did nada to upgrade the D.

Since to 2006 we have lost Pryce, AD, Scott, C-Mac and Rolle.. all PBers

We got.. Redding, JJ, McClain and whatever on CB.. None PBers.

Not sure if anyone else has pointed this out but the positive turnover ratio from 09-10 doesnt mean that we were forcing more turnovers than in 2005 to 2008.

It could, and most likely imo, means our offense was turning the ball over less. A defense can lead the league in takeaways but if their offense is turning the ball over just as much the turnover ratio wont be pretty.

[psuasskicker]

Turnovers lost on O:
'10 - 20
'09 - 22
'08 - 21
'07 - 40
'06 - 23
'05 - 36

Turnovers forced on D
'10 - 27
'09 - 32
'08 - 34
'07 - 23
'06 - 40
'05 - 26

So, '05 and '07 were somewhat outliers where not only were we turning the ball over WAY more than normal but not forcing as many turnovers; '08 and '06 were also stand-out years for turning it over less and forcing more

Overall, though? From '05-'08 they forced an avg of one turnover more than they did in '09-'10. Overall I'd say it's tough to argue there's a meaningful difference there. Yes, the point that the O was turning it over more accounts for the difference in turnover margin.

But the point still holds that this defense simply hasn't been poor over the last two years when it comes to forcing turnovers. Ryan's defense was always high-risk high-reward when it comes to making big plays. And turnovers went that direction where there were two sub-standard years and two great ones. What you had with Mattison was a more steady presence that wound up with two decent seasons.

Either way, forcing turnovers can hardly be argued as being this defense's problem. We were top half of the league both seasons in # turnovers despite being below average in # plays against by an opposing offense. Maybe we weren't great at forcing turnovers, but it was definitely not what you could describe as a weakness.

Especially given the '09-'10 teams have significantly less defensive talent than the '05-'08 teams.

- C -

[elland]

Turnovers lost on O:
'10 - 20
'09 - 22
'08 - 21
'07 - 40
'06 - 23
'05 - 36

Turnovers forced on D
'10 - 27
'09 - 32
'08 - 34
'07 - 23
'06 - 40
'05 - 26

So, '05 and '07 were somewhat outliers where not only were we turning the ball over WAY more than normal but not forcing as many turnovers; '08 and '06 were also stand-out years for turning it over less and forcing more

Overall, though? From '05-'08 they forced an avg of one turnover more than they did in '09-'10. Overall I'd say it's tough to argue there's a meaningful difference there. Yes, the point that the O was turning it over more accounts for the difference in turnover margin.

But the point still holds that this defense simply hasn't been poor over the last two years when it comes to forcing turnovers. Ryan's defense was always high-risk high-reward when it comes to making big plays. And turnovers went that direction where there were two sub-standard years and two great ones. What you had with Mattison was a more steady presence that wound up with two decent seasons.

Either way, forcing turnovers can hardly be argued as being this defense's problem. We were top half of the league both seasons in # turnovers despite being below average in # plays against by an opposing offense. Maybe we weren't great at forcing turnovers, but it was definitely not what you could describe as a weakness.

Especially given the '09-'10 teams have significantly less defensive talent than the '05-'08 teams.

- C -

This is pretty much it!

Only complain the numbers for 2006; 37-22 and 2005; 23-33.. source ESPN.

[RavensNTerps]

It's funny because everyone only remembers the 2006 Rex Ryan defense, which was on par with our 2000 defense for sure.

But people forget the 2007 and 2008 versions. The 2008 and 2009-10 versions were pretty damn similar.