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  1. #76
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??



    Quote Originally Posted by ClericBlackDave View Post
    You can't help yourself. That is the problem with political diehards, and why these discussions usually have about 0% usefulness outside the academic sphere.


    Please produce said data that is "fact". Then please explain to me how the data was collected, the "N" size (if you don't know what that means, then there isn't a point to my saying it).


    Then also tell me who commisioned the study to have this data collected, where the funding came from, and what the parameters were for this data (if it exists)


    Oh yeah and also explain the research design and why they probably "decided" to leave out several other relevant variables. Did they control for heteroskedaticity? Did the data have any sort of selection bias? For that matter, was it "fudged" by doing any interesting permeutations to the data?


    Do all of that w/o there being a shread of bias, and then maybe, MAYBE you can state it as fact.


    But please don't tell me because you and the economist said so, its fact. If you think thats true, I think you should invest a few G to take a few basic classes in politics and political science

    I know guys who can do Calculus in their sleep, but have a hard time with their multiplication tables.

    I know at least one person who aced her JD but couldn't reason her way out of a wet paper bag.

    Common sense, dude. Look around you. I don't need to commission a study to see what's obvious. If you do, I wonder about you. Children who don't have a strong two-parent influence are behind the eight ball and are allowed to make bad decisions.


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  2. #77
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Please produce said data that is "fact". Then please explain to me how the data was collected, the "N" size (if you don't know what that means, then there isn't a point to my saying it).
    How about this, all of the information you want was printed in The Economist on April 25, 1987. You go look it up for yourself.

    You have posted exactly ZERO facts, studies, ANYTHING to back up your points then you have the nerve to attack somebody who actually brings it to the discussion? Your own bias in denying what you don't agree with is more in play than those who conducted the study.

    Again, here is a challenge for you. HOW MANY PEOPLE DO YOU KNOW WHO ARE IN POVERTY WHO:
    1. Have worked steadily, even at minimum wage, since leaving school
    2. Graduated High School
    3. Avoided having children out of wedlock or better, got married and stayed married

    My guess is ZERO, because the people who make those minimal good choices and stay or go into poverty DO NOT EXIST.

    And you know something, impoverished people are less to blame than excuse makers like you who cloud the truth from them. I could try and tell them but I would get dismissed out of hand by them just as you have done to me because the likes of you have convinced them they have no hope.

    AGAIN, HOW MANY PEOPLE MEET THE CRITERIA I NOTED DO YOU KNOW?

    Oh, and again, I am the product of a broken home and I also got married young and got divorced. I am not standing on some moral high ground and looking down my nose at people who have made poor choices. I have lived it as a child and an adult, though thankfully my first marriage produced no kids. I am not morally superior to anybody, I just don't deny the obvious.




  3. #78

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Oh, and again, I am the product of a broken home and I also got married young and got divorced. I am not standing on some moral high ground and looking down my nose at people who have made poor choices. I have lived it as a child and an adult, though thankfully my first marriage produced no kids. I am not morally superior to anybody

    Good to see you can admit you're not perfect. No one is.


    That said, that still doesn't make a study published in the economist "fact". Being that its my job to make and review such studies, there is a lot that goes into such numbers or statistics thats hardly "factual".


    Because a study in the economist publishes it as "fact", does make it so.


    For Highwater or someone arguing that I have no argument, here's just a snipet of the problem with such studies.

    1) How did they contact and track poor people? And at what intervals? If they tracked poor people using census data, or relied on poor people who have phones or addresses, then there is a large selection bias to this study: it totally overlooks those who are homeless, who lack phones, people without SS #'s, people who generally don't show up on census data and represent a larger problem than those who are poor "on the fringes." These are people who are so poor, you can't contact them or track them for significant periods of time. Any consideration of poor people and their mental/psychological health? I dont think so.


    2) Who commissioned this study? All studies are funded. Its likely that such a study would be commisioned by a libertarian or conservative think tank or organization so that people like Greg, no offense, can have this "fact" to throw around on message boards and in wine and cheese discussions. Where does the number 199 out of 200 come from? Sounds like a convenient number to me . . . a number that has political meaning.


    By all means, think that all numbers from studies are "factual" and cannot be argued with. But there isn't a statistic out there that doesn't have a political meaning, slant, or origin.


    Again, read Deborah Stone's "Policy Paradox" for a good read about the nature of numbers in politics before you throw said numbers around as "fact"


    Thing is, I read the economist. I have an issue right in front of me talking about fixing the Bush Presidency. I'm not against opening my mind.


    But your average person out there like Greg is no longer digesting new informations or facts. All he is doing is absorbing facts that are compatible with his specific world view.


    If your world view is "right" or "factual" why doesn't everyone agree? Why do we have politics, and voting, and conflict?


    Let me guess; everyone besides you is an idiot.




  4. #79
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Again Dave, how many people in poverty do you know who have done these three things?

    Forget about there being some kind of fucking intent on regard to who did the study or why. Again...

    CAN YOU NAME ONE PERSON WHO HAS DONE THE THREE THINGS NOTED AND IS IN POVERTY?

    Where does the number 199 out of 200 come from? Sounds like a convenient number to me . . . a number that has political meaning.
    Look, they studied people in poverty and noted the differences between those who got out and those who did not. Those who got out did the 3 things I noted, those who did not made the poorer choices.

    If your world view is "right" or "factual" why doesn't everyone agree?
    LOL, well, because people can interpret data differently in some cases. But reasonable people can at least acknowledge the data. You keep dismissing it because it doesn't fit with your view and I have on a number of occasions invited you to cite one example that contradicts it. I mean come on, even I admit 1 out of every 200 people in poverty who do these three things will still be in poverty. You must think that number is higher, so list one name. Hell, find the 1 person in 200 I admit still failed.

    But your average person out there like Greg is no longer digesting new informations or facts. All he is doing is absorbing facts that are compatible with his specific world view.
    This coming from the guy who refuses to acknowledge the data. Okay, tell me, WHAT NEW INFORMATION OR FACT AM I NOT ABSORBING? You have posted ZERO facts or data. And you have no idea what information I absorb or don't. Here's something we all observe but I guess can't call fact without the Cleric's blessing, you have a unique ability to stand there with your fingers in your ears screaming "LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" while accusing me of it.
    Last edited by Greg; 03-14-2007 at 03:35 PM.




  5. #80

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Boys, boys.

    Greg gave his opinion, a reasonable one, and gave his reasons for it. Cleric Black Dave was (for once, no offense) arguing rationally, with a *different* opinion, and gave *his* reasons for it. He cited no data, but gave his reason for not citing data, and cited supposed learned treatises instead. So be it.

    A fine debate in good faith, if not up to ivory tower standards, so much the better in my humble opinion.

    Really, it's time to agree to disagree. . .

    Greg, go back to your corner contemplating your superior awesomeness, and CBD, go back to your corner contemplating political theory, which was some of my favorite material when I was an undergrad myself.

    :toast: and :hug:
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  6. #81
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    How did they contract and track poor people? If they tracked poor people using census data, or relied on poor people who have phones or addresses, then there is a large selection bias to this study: it totally overlooks those who are homeless, who lack phones, people without SS #'s, people who generally don't show up on census data and represent a larger problem than those who are poor "on the fringes."
    Sorry for the extra post but there is so much ... uh ... well ... that you miss some the first time through.

    DUDE, WHEN STUDYING PEOPLE WHO GOT JOBS, STAYED IN SCHOOL UNTIL GRADUATION FROM HIGH SCHOOL AND GOT MARRIED AND STAY MARRIED HOW MANY DO YOU THINK ARE HOMELESS OR DON'T HAVE SOCIAL SECURITY NUMBERS?

    Out of all the people in poverty who did these three things, how many are likely to be in the group you note? MORE THAN 1 IN 200? LOL...dude, you are at least funny.




  7. #82
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    festivus, I apologize for my enthusiasm but I have participated in this debate numerous times. In all of these debates my opponents to date have yet to find the 1 in 200 I admit exists. I just find it frustrating.

    There is a simple formula for getting out of poverty that when denied only hurts those in poverty.
    GO TO WORK, TAKING ANY JOB!
    DO NOT HAVE CHILDREN OUT OF WEDLOCK!
    FINISH HIGH SCHOOL!

    It works. And all of the spinning these cats can manage doesn't change that.




  8. #83

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    No need to apologize. My 2c is that if you *are* making a mistake, it is oversimplifying, and if CBD is making a mistake, it is undersimplifying. Not that I care to debate it, it's just that's my personal observation.

    Now take the number of times you've had this debate, add one, and inhale.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  9. #84
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    That's the thing though, it is simple. Sure, there are hundreds of other things that can be talked about like drug abuse or child abuse or whatever. But those are all things that cause a person to not do the 3 things OR are things they get into because they have no hope. If people knew that finishing HS, getting out into the workforce and avoiding the staggering bills an illegitimate child incur they might be a lot more likely to do them.




  10. #85

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    That's the thing though, it is simple.
    Oh, you won't trick me into this debate, thank you very much. Everyone's points have been made, and readers of this lengthy thread have seen the arguments. I was following along contentedly myself, until the repetition set in.

    It crept from :watching: to :brickwall: as debates can sometimes do.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  11. Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    I didnt want to read through 5 pages of posts, but seems like you are talking about poverty, out of work, uneducated deadbeats??? OH I get it, its a Steelers fan thread!

    Im not really ino political discussions, i fall more in line with the average american.....all i want to know is, who else did tom brady knock up?? (thats the american way, we dont care about solving world issues we just want our american idol and entertainment tonight!)

    Speaking of which did anyone else find the new report of the Iranians being upset about the "300" movie, saying it shows iranians in a bad light??? They are assuming the american public knows that persians come from persia, and persia is where modern day iran is. We aren that smart!
    Season ticket holder since 1996 Section 148 Tailgate Lot H
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  12. #87
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Damn.

    LOL, you are a rare one. I enjoy debates, and though it isn't the case this time, I occassionally will even debate the side of an argument I don't agree with. Despite the assumption that I don't look at all sides of an argument I actually do. I can usually argue both sides equally well.




  13. Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by highwater View Post
    This has been a fascinating thread for getting to know some people's credentials -- Raven Nurse has a minor in Psychology, CBD is a graduate student in Political Science and lives with a French Libertarian, and crazyraven is a certified moron who doesn't have the common sense to clear ice off the roof of his car.

    Pretty soon, we'll be posting our resumes on this thread.
    lol
    I say we all gang up together, flog Dave's roomie, and ship his butt back to France.

    Just sayin. Would that be so wrong?




  14. #89

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Whats up with peoples ratings? From one day to another they jump from one green dot to about 10 on some people




  15. Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    I hate ratings. Always have. I always vote to get rid of them. Say something someone doesn't like, and the whack you. And as was pointed out, they don't always work correctly anyway.

    But that is up to the big boss. I don't even know how to work the feature.




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