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  1. #46

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??



    People are poor because they behave poorly, they do not behave poorly because they are poor.

    That is your opinion, and not a truth. it would be better if you would state it as such.


    There are many theories as to why poverty exists; a very conservative viewpoint points to individual accountability, as you did above.


    While that may be true in *some* cases, that is a gross overgeneralization, and a huge overstatement. There are also many structural causes of poverty which many European and Asian nations have successfully combatted with effective policies. Until the US even tries such methods, claiming the source of all poverty to be based on a "culture of poverty" or certain "sins of the poor" is ignorant at best.


    Read James Morone's "Hellfire Nation" for a great read and a good account of how America and Americans try to use "us v. them" type of mentalities to justify behavior towards groups including poor people, immigrants, african americans, homosexuals, women, etc


    As for Tom Brady, he's got two attractive, RICH women pregnant. What the problem here?


    Those kids will be provided for.


    Anything other worries than that, and you're really getting into the guy's private life.
    Last edited by ClericBlackDave; 03-12-2007 at 10:40 PM.




  2. Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    <<< There are also many structural causes of poverty which many European and Asian nations have successfully combatted with effective policies. Until the US even tries such methods, claiming the source of all poverty to be based on a "culture of poverty" or certain "sins of the poor" is ignorant at best.

    Are you trying to say Europe and Asia deal with poverty better then the United States? If so, what policies are you referring to? Because I don't think it's an accurate statement. Have you seen the recent unemployment figures for Europe lately? Just last year, France for example had massive riots in their projects.

    As for Brady- Being rich doesn't let him off the hook. It's that kind of attitude that makes sports figures think they can get away with murder. If you or someone close to you got 2 different women pregnant at the same time, I'm pretty sure you might have a small problem with it.

    It is the 'at same time' thing that makes this look bad.




  3. #48
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    I also have a minor in Psychology, and both of your point of views are are common, although misguided, and most often had by well to do (wealthy/ republicans) that last part is my opinion. Again, we are not writing about society, this thread is about Brady and other pro players. So none of your points are valid!
    Really, so dispel my points. I am not wealthy and I am a Libertarian.

    The facts are, kids who are raised without a father in the house are more likely to have the problems I have listed and more. Your minor in psychology isn't challenging that fact with real statistics.

    People are poor because they behave poorly, they do not behave poorly because they are poor.
    That is your opinion, and not a truth. it would be better if you would state it as such.
    No, it's the truth. The Economist, hardly a right-wing publication, did a study and found the following in regard to poverty.
    99.5% of the people in poverty who:
    a. graduate high school
    b. get a job and keep it
    c. get married and stay married
    will get out of poverty. 199 out of 200. That's a pretty important statistic. If you are in poverty and make these good choices and avoid the opposing poor choices (not getting a job, dropping out, having children out of wedlock) you are almost guaranteed to get out of poverty. Hence, by not behaving poorly you will no longer be poor. By behaving poorly and not doing these simple things you will be poor.

    Poor choices cause poverty, not the other way around. If you get your free education, get ANY job and keep it until you find a better one, and get married and stay married. These aren't difficult things, they are simply good choices.

    There are many theories as to why poverty exists ...
    That's not a theory, those are facts. Make good choices, get out of poverty 99.5% of the time.

    Read James Morone's "Hellfire Nation" for a great read and a good account of how America and Americans try to use "us v. them" type of mentalities to justify behavior towards groups including poor people, immigrants, african americans, homosexuals, women, etc
    That has absolutely no bearing at all here. I am not trying to justify any behavior. You are, you are trying to justify the poor choices that keep people in poverty. You know, if you made these people aware of these simple things perhaps they might actually employ good choices. Instead, we get the hand-wringing excuse makers and Jesse Jackson race baiters in that tell these poor folks they can't possibly get out. Well, if you told me that long enough I would probably give up and smoke dope all day too.

    And those statistics, they apply to whites, blacks, whoever, just the same. There is absolutely no race component to it, whites who drop out, have children out of wedlock and/or don't get steady work are just as likely to get into or remain in poverty. Bringing race into it only causes confusion and is a race hustler tactic.

    The problem with rich people behaving like this is that they are role models for the masses who lap up this nonsense on E!, Entertainment Tonight, Inside Edition, etc. XYZ is pumping out kids out of wedlock so it must be fine.

    Our culture is flying down the shitter.

    And crazyraven, it has nothing to do with my religion. If you aren't religious and believe taboos come from men and not God, fine, these taboos were still set up by men for a reason. You don't think they wanted to bag every broad they could without impunity? Well, they did, but they married all the women they had children with and were fathers to those children because they discovered thousands of years ago that in fact this was the best way to raise them.

    You can deny that all you want for benefit of your next conquest and orgasm, but it doesn't change the facts. Children without fathers are a bane to society.

    As for Tom Brady, he's got two attractive, RICH women pregnant. What the problem here?

    Those kids will be provided for.
    They'll be provided for monetarily. But without the daily influence of a man in the household they will be more likely to become drug addicts, criminals, die young, get STDs, have children as teenagers, etc.

    http://www.children-ourinvestment.or...utFathers.html

    63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (US Dept. Of Health/Census) – 5 times the average.

    90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes – 32 times the average.

    85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average. (Center for Disease Control)

    80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes --14 times the average. (Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26)

    71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (National Principals Association Report)

    75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes – 10 times the average. (Rainbows for All God’s Children)

    70% of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes – 9 times the average. (U.S. Dept. of Justice, Sept. 1988)

    85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes – 20 times the average.
    Last edited by Greg; 03-12-2007 at 11:25 PM.




  4. #49
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    http://www.fathers.com/research/consequences.html

    http://www.fathers.com/help/importance.html

    http://www.unicef.org/pon96/inabsent.htm
    Check out those stats, somebody mentioned Europe. They are a bit better about being fathers in the home than Americans are.

    Shall I go on? How many links do you want? Oh, and also note, it doesn't say it only applies to poor kids or wealthy kids are exempt.




  5. #50

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Greg is absolutely correct. I don't think he needs any help here.




  6. #51
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Greg knows what he is talking about. He talks like a parent who knows about responsibility, not a man-child who thinks he can screw anyone he wants and if there is an "oops" pull out a checkbook and make it go away at worst or at best get away with it.

    He's also right that our culture is going down the shitter. We need more of the 1950s values in this country.


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  7. #52

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    You can deny that all you want for benefit of your next conquest and orgasm, but it doesn't change the facts. Children without fathers are a bane to society.
    This is the second mention of orgasm toward me. Honestly I haven;t conveyed anything about my jiz? Why do you keep talking about it? WTF? I dont understand. I have been talking about Tom Brady Being a father and supporting the children He has created and your talking about my conquests and love milk.
    WOW! I feel so fortunate that the Ravens did what they had to do to make this happen. Thank you. My Heart is with the Raven....My Heart is with Baltimore and its great fans. What can I say. Here We Go!!! --Ray Lewis
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  8. #53

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Are you trying to say Europe and Asia deal with poverty better then the United States? If so, what policies are you referring to? Because I don't think it's an accurate statement. Have you seen the recent unemployment figures for Europe lately?

    America is by far the wealthiest nation in the world at this point, yet our life expectancy for males is 30th of industrialized nations. Thats what I'm talking about; when you go at issues like poverty the are structural factors that the United States doesn't try to deal with because of its liberal (that's small "L" liberal, not liberal as its used in the media) founding and culture.


    Structural factors like lack of affordable housing, lack of healthcare, globalization and the destruction of American industry, all contribute to poverty; and yes, I believe many asian and european nations have dealt better with such issues and in THOSE nations, you have a stronger argument for individual accountability.


    I'm not writing off anyone's libertarian point of views. I'm a political science graduate student; my roomate is a libertarian, but even he knows better than to state libertarian/conservative viewpoints as "fact". Its a point of view that can be suported, but on the whole it isn't "fact". There is nothing more frustrating than a liberal, libertarian, or conservative that tries to use a viewpoint as fact.


    Vis a Vis the economist, he and I are subscribed to that, and if you claim it has no slant . . . haha i'll just politely say BS. Being that I do political science for a living, lets just say almost all studies, think-tanks, etc have a slant. Objective fact in that sense is always a myth. look at who funds research, what were the research parameters, where is there selection bias on the data, is someone fudging the data by ignoring heteroskedaticity or by ignoring relevant variables . . . i could go on


    In terms of Tom Brady, how much of a father he is or will be will determine how his kids turn out. Thats something, I think, that can be very independent of marriage as it currently exists as an institution.


    There are people right now who are married and in holy matrimony who are terrible fathers and terrible parents. And there are people who aren't married who play better roles as father figures than some men who are married.


    If you have a productive marriage and was a good parent, more power to you. My parents, 66 and 62, are still married and I attribute that to how i turned out; but it was more they way they parented than the mere fact that they are together and was positive.


    Thing is, Greg, I respect your opinions and agree that most families are better off when the mother and father are man and wife, etc


    HOWEVER, stating that as a fact is an overstatement that people are prone to. There are families that would be better off if the parents were divorced rather than doing a half assed job parenting because they spend most of their energies trying not to kill their mate.


    In terms for a longing to go back to the society and culture of the 1940's or in general of an early american age, a good read is Alan Ehrenhalt's "Lost City"; he tries to make such an argument, but the problem with that are apparent.


    In any case, stating a given viewpoint as fact because a given journal / magazine / article supports it . . . forgive me if I'm skeptical.


    Making an argument about pro-athletes doing less than stellar jobs as parents . . . thats an argument worth making. So long as you don't state your argument as "fact"


    -CBD




  9. #54
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    America is by far the wealthiest nation in the world at this point, yet our life expectancy for males is 30th of industrialized nations.
    Dude, LOOK AT THE STATISTICS FOR THESE COUNTRIES! These countries have a much higher rate of the father being in the home. You have done nothing but confirm that the breakup of the nuclear family correlates very closely to social problems.

    crazyraven, you make it abundantly clear that you put your own self-interests and pleasures above the best interests of others and our society. You think it is perfectly fine to drive down the road with ice flying off your car and hitting others and you think it is perfectly fine to screw every woman you can and if a baby results a monthly check will take care of it, if you are caught anyway. My talking about you putting your orgasm ahead of all other things is a simple summation of that. You are more interested in your own pleasure than you are our society and those around you. You are quite simply, an extremely selfish person.

    HOWEVER, stating that as a fact is an overstatement that people are prone to. There are families that would be better off if the parents were divorced rather than doing a half assed job parenting because they spend most of their energies trying not to kill their mate.
    While there are certainly exceptions to the rule such as an abusive father who shows little to no love, the best thing is a loving, encouraging, strong father in the home. You are trying to refute my case, backed up with statistics and facts with exceptions.

    And while The Economist does have a fiscally conservative bent, socially they are quite liberal. That doesn't change the facts. Who do you know that is in poverty who has graduated high school, always had a job even if it were for minimum wage and avoided having children out of wedlock? My guess is nobody. Again, it is simple, make very simple and easily attainable choices and poverty can be overcome. And again, the reason this doesn't happen very often is because for some reason people dismiss this away and instead tell people in poverty it isn't their fault and then they excuse their poor choices as a result of being in poverty when the relationship actually goes the other way. You are harming people in poverty by denying this simple fact and keeping it from them.

    Come on Greg.....you a liberal....not by reading your viewpoints. I guess the people of New Orleans had all the help they needed from the Gov and should have just left earlier.....
    I said I was a Libertarian, not a liberal. There is a HUGE difference. And the government did fail the people in New Orleans, particularly the city government who let hundreds of business get ruined in the flood that could have been used to get those people out.

    If you are trying to get me to defend government and claim it is efficient you are barking up the wrong tree. Government sucks, that's why we need a lot less of it.




  10. #55

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    > If you are trying to get me to defend government and claim it is
    > efficient you are barking up the wrong tree. Government sucks,
    > that's why we need a lot less of it.

    Yup, a libertarian through and through. Anyone who gets those two words mixed up feel free to look here and here and educate yourself. The single most fundamental difference, and Greg is free to disagree if I'm wrong, being the role of government.

    Pretty much everything Greg has written has 'libertarian' all over it. No surprise he cites The Economist, which is an excellent magazine that might particularly appeal to someone with those stripes.

    :watching:
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  11. #56
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Libertarians are socially liberal and economically conservative, always stressing the least amount of government possible. Or in the words of Thomas Jefferson "The government that governs best, governs least." I always laughed my ass off when Clinton would compare himself to Jefferson. And Bush blows as well, I hold both parties in contempt.

    I actually first read those statistics in a book called The Great Reckoning. They cited The Economist during a chapter on the causes of poverty.




  12. #57

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg View Post
    And Bush blows as well, I hold both parties in contempt.
    Yup. Libertarians have not had a President they liked in a loooong time. New Presidents come in with their own agendas and normally have to add infrastructure (i.e., more government) to move on them, and George W. is no exception. Perhaps you liked Reagan? I'm not sure he actually *shrank* government, though. If not, how far back do you have to go? Lyndon Johnson, JFK, Nixon, Carter all expanded government's role in our day to day lives.

    Normally I'd feel guilty about thread drift, but in this case. . . :whistling:
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  13. #58
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    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    LOL, probably pre-Lincoln. At least when Jefferson exceeded what he considered Constitutional power when buying the Lousiana Territory he wrestled with it for a while. I liked Reagan, if he had been elected in 2000 with a Republican Congress we actually might have seen some action. He was limited by a very hostile Congress.

    JFK was better than either Bush.




  14. #59

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    Quote Originally Posted by Raven Nurse View Post
    So can we agree that as long as Brady supports his kids he is still a good guy
    We can (and probably should) agree to disagree, and leave it at that.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  15. #60

    Re: Tom Brady is father to 2 children??

    crazyraven, you make it abundantly clear that you put your own self-interests and pleasures above the best interests of others and our society. You think it is perfectly fine to drive down the road with ice flying off your car and hitting others and you think it is perfectly fine to screw every woman you can and if a baby results a monthly check will take care of it, if you are caught anyway. My talking about you putting your orgasm ahead of all other things is a simple summation of that. You are more interested in your own pleasure than you are our society and those around you. You are quite simply, an extremely selfish person.
    Just because i dont give a rats ass about removing snow from the roof of my car because I have other things to do and I dont want to waste time doesnt mean that you can automatically make the assumtion that Crazyraven is out to screw every woman. Sure I like the way it feels without a rubber but you aint gonna catch me with a bunch of kids from different woman. Uh-uh.
    I do take the time to avoid a potential accident.
    WOW! I feel so fortunate that the Ravens did what they had to do to make this happen. Thank you. My Heart is with the Raven....My Heart is with Baltimore and its great fans. What can I say. Here We Go!!! --Ray Lewis
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