Concern over corners overblown

[Jeremiah W]

It's frustrating to me that people get so hyped up about our team that they don't pay attention to the nuances of the game.

The statistics DO NOT tell the true story of our team last year. Statistically we benefited immensely from playing several anemic offenses. Our BIGGEST front office mistakes were self-deluding about the quality of our secondary and pass rush. Our run defense was still top notch (albeit with a few games off) and the run defense allowed us to maintain an above-average defense overall, but our secondary cost us multiple games and ALMOST cost us several others.

People, just because we love the Ravens with all our hearts and souls does not mean that we should ignore reality. And just because we trust in Ozzie's wisdom, does not mean that he doesn't make bad judgment mistakes sometimes. With Webb and Washington completely healthy, we MIGHT be able to make up for our undersized, under-skilled secondary IF WE BLITZED MORE THAN TWICE PER HALF. Mattison's base defense left a lot to be desired last year and anybody that watched every game should remember that. The end-of-season statistics are misleading.

We have the exact same personnel at the beginning of this season as we did last season MINUS a healthy Webb and Washington. Even if we added a free agent, at this point, we're not going to get any upgrades at the position. The veterans that get cut are cut for a reason - because they're deemed unworthy of decent contracts. So even if we sign the most seasoned veteran available, it will still only add depth instead of improve quality. Foxworth was a miscalculated talent given too big of an investment that it will cost us too much money to cut him, but he is not a quality starting #1. Below is a list of receivers that can handily beat him this year on our schedule. Anytime any one of these offenses recognizes us in Man coverage, they will throw to these receivers because we have no CB's on our roster that can handle them.

Ochocinco
Antonio Bryant
Randy Moss (if he shows up to play that day)
Lee Evans
Brandon Marshall
Steve Smith
Andre Johnson
Marques Colston

After week 6 the Ravens only allowed 2 big pass plays.

The D was #3 in the NFL.

They went to NE and shut the Pats down before going to Indy 6 days later and holding them to 20.

The D is not what it used to be, but the NFL is not what it used to be. 10 QBs threw for 4,000 yards. The Ravens led the NFL in penalty yards differential. Many of the games all the calls seemed to go against them, but the overall outcome was better than all but 2 teams in the NFL. Scoring is up.

There is not the exact same personel here either. The upgrades on O could totally change the type of situations the D is in. The changes on the D line will affect the secondary. There are a lot of differences on the roster, and most likley less top rated pass attacks on the schedule this year. Either way if the O plays like they should, we will not need the D to hold teams under 20 to win.

[NeverMissedAGame]

After week 6 the Ravens only allowed 2 big pass plays.

The D was #3 in the NFL.

The D is not what it used to be, but the NFL is not what it used to be. 10 QBs threw for 4,000 yards. The Ravens led the NFL in penalty yards differential. Many of the games all the calls seemed to go against them, but the overall outcome was better than all but 2 teams in the NFL. Scoring is up.

There is not the exact same personel here either. The upgrades on O could totally change the type of situations the D is in. The changes on the D line will affect the secondary. There are a lot of differences on the roster, and most likley less top rated pass attacks on the schedule this year. Either way if the O plays like they should, we will not need the D to hold teams under 20 to win.

Again, citing the final season stats is very misleading because we significantly benefited from playing a few anemic offenses - Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, and Oakland.

We also didn't exactly improve the Defensive Line. Last year, we were in the bottom half of the league in sacks. This year, we added Redding, Kindle, and Cody. Redding will be a serviceable replacement for Dwan Edwards, but if he plays like he played last year in Seattle, he won't be an upgrade at all. Kindle is so aggressive and over-eager that he was practically useless against the run in Texas. Unless we can change this, he will only be useful on guaranteed passing downs (almost exclusively 3rd downs). While 3rd downs are important, that leaves us with 1st and 2nd downs for teams to face the identical pass rush we had last year. Cody just doesn't have the quickness to be effective in the pass rush. He has the size and strength to be a great run-stopper, but he had very few sacks at Alabama because he's just not quick enough. Therefore, the only upgrade we got to our pass rush will be on 3rd downs when Kindle is in. AND THAT'S IF HE TURNS OUT TO BE A SOLID NFL PLAYER WHICH ISN'T GUARANTEED FOR A 2ND ROUND PICK. After Kruger last year, there's not guarantee that Kindle will produce this year.

As far as having an offense that stays on the field longer and therefore helps our defense? Ok, that will hopefully happen this year. But let me ask you something? Do you love the tough-as-nails attitude that has been our singular team identity since Ray brought our Defense to prominence? I love it. And I don't want to lose it. I think it's really important to us as a fan base because it embodies the reality of our city. I understand that the Baltimore Colts of mythological lore had a dominant passing offense, but it was a different city then. I'm not saying that I don't want a great offense to compliment our Defense. But I will feel very weird being a DIEHARD Ravens fan if we lose that team identity of "grind for every inch" on Defense. It makes me feel connected to the team via the parallel attitude of coming from where I come from. I pray that we don't lose that.

[NC Raven]

If this was baseball and you had the most money of everyone, you could sign a Hall of Fame caliber player at every position, and have nothing but All Stars on the bench.

I believe that is what some of the commenters in this thread are suggesting the Ravens do.

Sorry guys, we can't also go out and sign Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, Namdi Asomugah, and Darrell Revis, AND keep our first round draft pick, AND improve the O-line, AND improve the pass rush, AND obtain replacements for the aging vets, AND have future Hall of Famers waiting in the wings in case somebody goes down with an injury. Doesn't work that way. This isn't Madden, and it's not a 2-team fantasy football league.

[NeverMissedAGame]

If this was baseball and you had the most money of everyone, you could sign a Hall of Fame caliber player at every position, and have nothing but All Stars on the bench.

I believe that is what some of the commenters in this thread are suggesting the Ravens do.

Sorry guys, we can't also go out and sign Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, Namdi Asomugah, and Darrell Revis, AND keep our first round draft pick, AND improve the O-line, AND improve the pass rush, AND obtain replacements for the aging vets, AND have future Hall of Famers waiting in the wings in case somebody goes down with an injury. Doesn't work that way. This isn't Madden, and it's not a 2-team fantasy football league.

Well, I completely agree that we can't have it all. However: it is an uncapped year and we are the 4th most profitable franchise in the NFL thanks to our amazing, faithful, diehard fan base.

Also, we COULD cut a couple veterans unworthy of their contracts on our team and use the money to sign a strong CB. Then we can use younger "cheaper" players for depth at whatever position we cut. That is a known tactic for improving quality at a position. We could also TRADE from either future draft picks or positions at which we're currently deep.

[jonboy79]

If this was baseball and you had the most money of everyone, you could sign a Hall of Fame caliber player at every position, and have nothing but All Stars on the bench.

I believe that is what some of the commenters in this thread are suggesting the Ravens do.

Sorry guys, we can't also go out and sign Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson, Peyton Manning, Namdi Asomugah, and Darrell Revis, AND keep our first round draft pick, AND improve the O-line, AND improve the pass rush, AND obtain replacements for the aging vets, AND have future Hall of Famers waiting in the wings in case somebody goes down with an injury. Doesn't work that way. This isn't Madden, and it's not a 2-team fantasy football league.

Don't disagree. My point is jsut that CB isn't a place you skimp, or shortcut with. There are plenty of more reasonable places to skimp that are FLUSH with talent here.

[Dragz]

Jonboy, I'm sorry. You might be right about our corners, I just saw Fabian and he's looking outta shape!! http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/7199

[Jeremiah W]

Again, citing the final season stats is very misleading because we significantly benefited from playing a few anemic offenses - Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, and Oakland.

We also didn't exactly improve the Defensive Line. Last year, we were in the bottom half of the league in sacks. This year, we added Redding, Kindle, and Cody. Redding will be a serviceable replacement for Dwan Edwards, but if he plays like he played last year in Seattle, he won't be an upgrade at all. Kindle is so aggressive and over-eager that he was practically useless against the run in Texas. Unless we can change this, he will only be useful on guaranteed passing downs (almost exclusively 3rd downs). While 3rd downs are important, that leaves us with 1st and 2nd downs for teams to face the identical pass rush we had last year. Cody just doesn't have the quickness to be effective in the pass rush. He has the size and strength to be a great run-stopper, but he had very few sacks at Alabama because he's just not quick enough. Therefore, the only upgrade we got to our pass rush will be on 3rd downs when Kindle is in. AND THAT'S IF HE TURNS OUT TO BE A SOLID NFL PLAYER WHICH ISN'T GUARANTEED FOR A 2ND ROUND PICK. After Kruger last year, there's not guarantee that Kindle will produce this year.

As far as having an offense that stays on the field longer and therefore helps our defense? Ok, that will hopefully happen this year. But let me ask you something? Do you love the tough-as-nails attitude that has been our singular team identity since Ray brought our Defense to prominence? I love it. And I don't want to lose it. I think it's really important to us as a fan base because it embodies the reality of our city. I understand that the Baltimore Colts of mythological lore had a dominant passing offense, but it was a different city then. I'm not saying that I don't want a great offense to compliment our Defense. But I will feel very weird being a DIEHARD Ravens fan if we lose that team identity of "grind for every inch" on Defense. It makes me feel connected to the team via the parallel attitude of coming from where I come from. I pray that we don't lose that.

I feel you. If it was up to me, we would have signed Peppers instead of Redding, but I am hoping and do think he will return to form on this D.

Dwan Edwards was not a scrub or anything, but he has 2 sacks in the NFL after all theese years. Redding shuld upgrade him as a pass rusher even in a bad year.

Suggs does not nomally stink like he did last year. I think he will be a lot better than he was last year even if he is not better than he was before that.

Kruger offered next to nothing last year as a pass rusher, if he can just eat up some snaps, he he should help improve the rush overall.

Barnes is still a promising talent off the edge.

Kindle is a better prospect.

Burgess, McClain, Gooden and Ellerbe are in the mix, one or two of them could improve this year enough to be a rotaion guy on passing downs.

As long as we have fresh and talented pass rushers, and decent CBs who do not have to worry about the run, I can nt see the Ravens taking a step back on D from last year. And the last 2 years have been disapointing from a defensive perspective. They were good, better than most of the NFL, but they could have, and maybe should have been better.

The first 2 picks were on D, and thy brought in a DL player with better pass rush than run stopping skills. Art Jones could also be a pretty effective 3rd down DT.

There is no doubt a better rush would improve the coverage, we will just have to see if it really is as improved as it needs to be. None of the Cbs are shut down types, but as long as they are all solid, the D should be spectacular again.

The O should not only be able to keep the ball a little better this year, they should be able to get more quick scores and fast starts. When they have done that recently the D usually shuts the door and the rout is on, but when we let the other team get a lead or hang around, the 4th Q pass rush and coverage have broken down a little too often.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Again, citing the final season stats is very misleading because we significantly benefited from playing a few anemic offenses - Cleveland, Denver, Detroit, Chicago, and Oakland.

You are absolutely right. I mean no other teams played those 4 teams right? I mean we were the only team that played 5 bad offenses!

The rest of your argument is classic overreaction. I like how you already know that Redding and Kindle suck. Maybe I should just not watch any of the games?

[NeverMissedAGame]

You are absolutely right. I mean no other teams played those 4 teams right? I mean we were the only team that played 5 bad offenses!

The rest of your argument is classic overreaction. I like how you already know that Redding and Kindle suck. Maybe I should just not watch any of the games?

If you really want to breakdown arguments, take a look at how you're trying to distort what I've been saying. You are trying to make it a black and white discussion. I never said or implied that either Redding or Kindle suck. I just described what both Texas and NFL coaches have noticed about Kindle and how inconsistent Redding was last year in Seattle. Even though I'm no longer in Baltimore, it's still in my blood so I check out every incoming Raven each year, which is why I looked up Seattle Times articles about the Seahawks D-Line.

I'm a high school football coach and I actually have players at Texas and several in the SEC. I therefore watched all but one Texas game this past season and saw several Alabama games. Even the Texas coaches notably kept Kindle off the field during 1st downs and short 2nd down situations. He is very quick and aggressive, but has a hard time stopping and changing direction to react to run plays. Cody was NEVER on the field during passing downs because he was so winded from running downs. They got several 12 men on the field penalties actually because he was so slow to run off the field. It happened at least three times that I saw and twice in the same game.

If you want to ridicule people with sensationalist "all or nothing" arguments, you can find someone else that likes it. I'm just on here to share my passion for my hometown team and discuss thoughts with other fans. If you actually want to talk football go ahead and tell me why you think Kindle or Redding will be more than what I described them as on the field. Sure, there's a chance that Clarence Brooks could teach Kindle how to play with a little more maturity, but usually college players don't take leaps and bounds in their first year. Even Ray Rice didn't. So please give me a logical argument with respectably high Ravens football IQ to tell me how our Defense has gotten better so far this off-season.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

If you really want to breakdown arguments, take a look at how you're trying to distort what I've been saying. You are trying to make it a black and white discussion. I never said or implied that either Redding or Kindle suck. I just described what both Texas and NFL coaches have noticed about Kindle and how inconsistent Redding was last year in Seattle. Even though I'm no longer in Baltimore, it's still in my blood so I check out every incoming Raven each year, which is why I looked up Seattle Times articles about the Seahawks D-Line.

I'm a high school football coach and I actually have players at Texas and several in the SEC. I therefore watched all but one Texas game this past season and saw several Alabama games. Even the Texas coaches notably kept Kindle off the field during 1st downs and short 2nd down situations. He is very quick and aggressive, but has a hard time stopping and changing direction to react to run plays. Cody was NEVER on the field during passing downs because he was so winded from running downs. They got several 12 men on the field penalties actually because he was so slow to run off the field. It happened at least three times that I saw and twice in the same game.

If you want to ridicule people with sensationalist "all or nothing" arguments, you can find someone else that likes it. I'm just on here to share my passion for my hometown team and discuss thoughts with other fans. If you actually want to talk football go ahead and tell me why you think Kindle or Redding will be more than what I described them as on the field. Sure, there's a chance that Clarence Brooks could teach Kindle how to play with a little more maturity, but usually college players don't take leaps and bounds in their first year. Even Ray Rice didn't. So please give me a logical argument with respectably high Ravens football IQ to tell me how our Defense has gotten better so far this off-season.

I think adding someone who has had 16 sacks, 18 QB pressures and 34 tackles for loss in 2 years is quite an addition to this defense. I've seen Kindle at least 7 times, and every time I was more than impressed. I think Redding is a good low risk move...if the guy can get motivated, he was at one point the highest paid DT in the game. That was only like 2-3 years ago. I'd bet that he is closer to that Redding than the one last year in Seattle. I also think getting a guy who can spell/take over for a 33 year old NT coming in year 2 of serious knee surgery is an excellent move.

If you want to nitpick, you can nitpick every corner in this draft...Haden is small and played the CB spot where he got help from the sideline, Wilson failed his physical, McCourty had like 2 INT's his entire career, Robinson is very talented but also very inconsistant, and Cook is strictly a cover 2 corner.

This was a pretty lame year for CB's. Watch out for next year though...

[NC Raven]

You are absolutely right. I mean no other teams played those 4 teams right? I mean we were the only team that played 5 bad offenses!

The rest of your argument is classic overreaction. I like how you already know that Redding and Kindle suck. Maybe I should just not watch any of the games?

Yeah, really. Our D pulverized those weak offenses. A weak defense wouldn't have done that. Plus, every year there's bad teams on everybody's schedule. The key is being able to beat them, which the Ravens did.

And if they're going to argue that the stats were skewed because of those bad teams, then they have to recognize that our defensive stats were also hurt by playing at Minnesota, at San Diego, at New England, at Green Bay..... to finish as high as we did with that schedule, with a new coordinator, and the injuries in the secondary, and the well documented PI problems, and ... Frank Walker..... damn man, what are people complaining about again? 3rd in yards, 3rd in points allowed, 5th against the rush, and tied for 8th in passing yards (with all those injuries and Frank Walker playing all those snaps).

I'm just not seeing the problem. No team in the NFL is going to be as good as it could possibly be with multiple starters on one side of the ball out with injury.