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03-05-2010, 01:28 AM #49Regular 1st Stringer
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03-05-2010, 02:50 AM #50Pro Bowl Poster
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Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
I want to understand the folks who want Gaither gone or moved to RT so badly.
--Both Oher and Gaither are 23.
--Gaither has proven he can play LT at a high level the last 2 seasons
--Oher has failed in his attempts to play LT in the NFL by any measure, although I'd agree that does not damn him for all time there
--Oher is a very good RT
--While Oher is better conditioned, Gaither is the more prototypical size for a LT. He has long arms, but even if Oher and he had arms the same length, Gaither has the "block out the sun" size which makes it more difficult to find Ray Rice or see a handoff.
--The Ravens are one of perhaps 3 teams in the NFL that enter the 2010 season with NO HOLES TO FILL on the O-Line
--For those of you who think the Ravens can't afford Gaither (or both tackles) long term, I'd say that might be true, but it's equally sure they can't afford Brandon Marshall and Michael Oher if that is the combination you're looking for.
--To the best of my knowledge Gaither has no citizenship issues or existing strikes to manage, while others like Marshall, who some folks want to acquire for Gaither, carries huge risk.
JO clearly likes Oher better than Gaither and the Ravens may not be thrilled with Gaither's work ethic (I have no observed basis to verify this, it's all hearsay to me, which leads me to make a judgment based on on-field results), but that may be why he was so cheap.
Have any of you folks had employees that were simply more talented, but lazy? Have any of you ever been that guy? Even the most likeable players typically have a ceiling. It's often those who aren't universally liked that have greater upside (Ruth, Cobb, R Jackson, Bonds, ARod, Anson, Rose, and Williams would be great examples in baseball).
Another point about LTs in general. Like CB's on defense, they are the relief aces of the NFL. They face the best pass rushers and will occasionally allow sacks. When they do, the defender can make them look bad, because elite pass rushers are paid to do exactly that. The good tackles line up again and work to not get beat again.
By PFF's grading, Gaither has not allowed 2 sacks in a game in the last 32 (and only 6 sacks total). If you look at PFF grading, you'll see that Gaither is a very balanced run and pass blocking talent who has had just 5 negative pass rush scores in the last 2 seasons (32 games, including playoffs). All of those 5 came in 2008.Last edited by Filmstudy; 03-05-2010 at 02:57 AM.
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03-05-2010, 10:54 AM #51
Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
That movie was freaking awful, and I've never taken a different stance. Feel free to continue touting this, though!
I didn't say I want him gone so badly. But the level of delusion on this board about Gaither's ability and/or actual level of play is simply beyond control. Can anyone here show me one well respected source that is not a Baltimore fan that rates Gaither even as a top 10 OT? Hell, as a top ten LT?
He's a good LT. I'm not debating that. But already into his third year, there's not really a ton of upside we haven't already seen. He's unlikely to get THAT much better than he already is. And he's simply not a top ten tackle in this league. He can certainly be replaced. And there are more than one OTs in this draft that I'd certainly rather have than Gaither if you gave me the choice.
I mean, it's one thing to talk about a team giving up a first rounder to sign the guy away from us. That by itself isn't particularly likely, though it could happen and would certainly be nice if it did. But give up a top ten pick? Some of you guys are talking like it's insane for teams NOT to be considering doing this. But realistically I think if you went into any NFL GM's office picking in the top ten and suggested them signing Gaither and giving up their first rounder to do so, you'd get laughed out of the building. The guy is nowhere CLOSE to that valuable.
- C ----------------------------------------------------
www.oblongspheroid.com
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03-05-2010, 11:01 AM #52Veteran Poster
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Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
Well, we'll find out in the next few days just what kind of market there really is for Gaither.
PP
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Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
Here is one completely unbiased source. Take it for what you want, it certainly is not the end all be all, but at least there seems to be some real data behind these rankings.
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03-05-2010, 11:24 AM #54Pro Bowl Poster
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Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
He's play 3 years, 2 as a full time starter, 1 of which was cut short by injuries. He's already shown he can be a good to great LT. What would be the upside of trading him for a 1st round pick? So you could draft a guy who hopefully will be a good to great LT who's the same age? Who you pay the same money to?
Lateral move.
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03-05-2010, 12:08 PM #55Regular 1st Stringer
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Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
Gaither is a nice tackle, but I'm sure Ozzie is thinking of value here. And if some stupid GM wants to give up a first round draft pick for Gaither, that would be amazing value. Gaither was a 5th round supplemental draft pick, after all, and to turn a 5th round supplemental draft pick into a first round draft pick is ridiculous, unimaginable, and a no-brainer.
But everyone needs to chill out. I'd eat shit for breakfast if Gaither got us a first round draft pick. He'll still be a Raven next year.
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03-05-2010, 02:46 PM #56Veteran Poster
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Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
It's not that I want Gaither gone or think he is a bad player. By only placing a first round tender on Gaither Ozzie is putting himself in the perfect position. He gets to let other teams set the value. If a team offers him a deal that is reasonable Ozzie can match. If someone offers Gaither high end LT money Ozzie can take the first rounder as compensation. If Gaither plays well this next year he will certainly price himself out of the Ravens price range. If Ozzie and the staff think that Oher is the LT they want to keep than I trust their judgment.
To the other post regarding using the Cowboys or Colts pick for Marshall. I believe they can only use their own first and not one that was acquired as compensation for signing a restricted free agent. If they decided to trade for him using the later first round pick I don't think they would have to be a sign and trade agreement as the Ravens cannot give a new contract to any player acquired.
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03-05-2010, 02:48 PM #57
Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
I'm not sure if FS runs or is just associated with / works for PFF, but calling this an unbiased site is simply not accurate. Ravens fans are grading Ravens players, including Gaither. I don't know who's grading other teams, but it doesn't matter. Even if the other teams are all graded by fans of that team, it's still introducing bias into it. It's more meaningful to find a site that has people either grade teams of which they have no emotional connection (like or hate), or a site that has those "graders" making non-observational, data driven captures of what's going on, and have backups to verify that data capture. Football Outsiders as an example.
As one friend pointed out to me, Damien Woody is #3 at OT on PFF. Color me skeptical.
You can't pretend there'd be no upside of trading him. He has shown he's a good LT, but with three years in the league - regardless of how much he's actually played (note that injury tendency should be considered a negative, not a neutral factor) - he's coming close to tapping out on improvement. He'll be entering his prime soon. And don't gimme crap about being five years away from it...when you deal with high wear-and-tear positions, like RB and linemen, you typically have a certain amount of plays before you wind down, not a certain age where you do it.
And while his prime certainly looks to be good, it's simply not "great" and definitely not as dominant as some on this board make it out to be. Draft picks offer significant up-side. And there look to be some exceptional OTs hitting the draft this year, not to mention that we're coming off some exceptional OTs out of recent drafts, like Thomas, Long, Clady, etc.
Yes there's a possibility of a bust. That's always a risk with a draft pick.
But if someone offered you Clady straight up for Gaither? Sorry, you'd be certifiably insane not to take it.
- C ----------------------------------------------------
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A blog about any and everything football.
Twitter: oblong_spheroid
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03-05-2010, 02:53 PM #58Regular 1st Stringer
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03-05-2010, 03:09 PM #59
Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
That's being generous.
At least on the field. The only justification I see for moving Gaither is, as some have suggested, some type of character flaw that has scared the Ravens off from retaining him at a left tackle salary.
I'm baffled by criticism of his play on the field. The guy has better tools than every OT in this draft not named Bruce Campbell, with 20-plus starts and two playoff appearances under his belt, and yet some want to replace him with Michael Oher or a Rookie? With Gaither, you know what you have, and can see what you will - ten or more years of well above average left tackle play.
:grbac:
I didn't see nor read "the Blind Side", but I would imagine it at least to some degree highlights the importance of the left tackle position. You transition out your starter (at the second most important offensive position) for the last two seasons, who are you replacing with? I'm asking legitimately. Who?
I agree with Film Study - Oher is a prototypical RT and should stay there in a perfect scenario. But you have to pay somebody. In a unit that demands continuity, I much prefer it be a guy we've groomed and who has proven himself, if at all possible.
The two names that MIGHT make sense:
Jamaal Brown (RT) or Donald Penn (LT), both of whom got 1st and 3rd round tenders by the way. The Saints were smart enough to tender Brown with a first and third, even though he barely played in their Super Bowl season.
The Ravens made a mistake exposing Gaither in the way that they did - whether it comes back to bite them remains to be seen.Last edited by TheExtraPoint; 03-05-2010 at 03:14 PM.
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03-05-2010, 03:14 PM #60
Re: Ravens gathering Gaither interest?
Ken's (FS) only link with PFF is that we both use our player participation data to cross check for errors (look for plays we disagree on personnel & see who's got it right). As we've said to him before, we're grateful for the error checking process and would love it if fans of more teams did a similar thing so we could cross check our PP data with more people. To show how unique even Ken's non-positional logs are, the only other people we've cross checked PP data with is a few NFL teams.
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