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  1. #31

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD



    i was exaggerating, but my point is that everyone knew the RB was expendable in the Colts system. AD isn't the equivalent of James, he's CLOSER to equalling the loss of Manning than he is James...we'll call it a draw and say that it would be CLOSEST to losing Harrison.




  2. #32
    Join Date
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    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Sorry RNT, but I disagree with you. I don't think there will be more than a 5 point drop in our defense (from #1-#6). I gave myself a cushion, I really think we'll be between 2-4.

    I love what AD does but comparing him to Peyton Manning (1st ballot HOFer) and Marvin Harrison (1st ballot HOFer) is a stretch. He is not their defensive equivalant. Ray Lewis in his prime was.

    People think that losing AD is going to destroy us. Do our fans not remember history? We lost in 1 season: Goose, Adams, McCrary, Sharper, Woodson, and Starks in one season along with our brilliant DC, Marvin Lewis. And we replaced all of them with inferior talent. Quite frankly losing just Sharper (who is wildly underrated, he led the league in tackles one year) and one of those other guys is the same as losing AD. Disagree with that but I know you cannot argue that he is more important than all of them together.

    So after losing all these guys, how far did we fall? Something like 10 spots, I think we ended up around 13th. Statistically a slightly above middle of the pack defense although they always played scrappy ball. And you know what, we survived ok with that group. If we can get by with only Ray, Boulware, McAlister, Reed, and a bunch of rookies (and/or scrubs) we will certainly be ok with 10 of 11 returning starters of the #1 D in the league.

    In fact I guarantee that almost every other team would trade their D's straight up for our 10 of 11 starters.

    We need to use the money AD deserves to fix the near complete overhaul of the offense. We are so close to being a complete team, now is not the time to lose sight of that.




  3. #33

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    You and most fans just underestimate him because he has only REALLY come on in the past 2 seasons.

    He is every bit (and I might argue POSSIBLY moreso) the player that Ray Lewis was in 2001. It isn't popular because:

    1. Ray was superbowl MVP
    2. Ray was the best player on our D for years and years (no argument here)
    3. Ray is still on teh team and playing at a relatively high level, so people overrate his importance on the CURRENT team and thereby underrate the importance of other key players like AD

    4. AD has only really started doing his thang under Rex Ryan, who took over last year, during which we went 6-10 so his accomplishments for 1/2 of his "big years" got overlooked by many folk.




  4. #34

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Everybody loves AD. But this whole thing is becoming like a cult or something. AD was probably one of the greatest all around players in the NFL. But our system will adjust. It's the next man up theory. AD deserves his payday and he will get it, because the Ravens are not going to franchise him or trade him or transition him. It's time for him to leave the nest and it's the right thing to do.




  5. #35

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    I just think it would be more prudent to trade a Ray Lewis and keep AD. That's all. AD at this point is a much (not a little bit, a lot) better player than Ray is at this point, and, it's sad to say, for the level of play Ray Lewis is DRASTICALLY overpaid at this point.




  6. #36

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensNTerps View Post
    I just think it would be more prudent to trade a Ray Lewis and keep AD. That's all. AD at this point is a much (not a little bit, a lot) better player than Ray is at this point, and, it's sad to say, for the level of play Ray Lewis is DRASTICALLY overpaid at this point.
    The Ravens would love to do this if there wasn't a cap.

    You can't just trade Ray and all of a sudden have the room to sign AD.

    I'd love to do that to if it were possible.

    If someone who's more familiar with the cap would chime in, what's the cap hit if the Ravens deal Ray Lewis to a team this offseason.

    PP




  7. #37

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensNTerps View Post
    You and most fans just underestimate him because he has only REALLY come on in the past 2 seasons.

    He is every bit (and I might argue POSSIBLY moreso) the player that Ray Lewis was in 2001. It isn't popular because:

    1. Ray was superbowl MVP
    2. Ray was the best player on our D for years and years (no argument here)
    3. Ray is still on teh team and playing at a relatively high level, so people overrate his importance on the CURRENT team and thereby underrate the importance of other key players like AD

    4. AD has only really started doing his thang under Rex Ryan, who took over last year, during which we went 6-10 so his accomplishments for 1/2 of his "big years" got overlooked by many folk.

    RnT, nobody disagrees with anything here, besides the part about underrating AD. Everybody knows he's terrific, and everybody wishes him the very best.

    To quote the philosopher William "Bill" Munny, "Deserve's got nothing to do with it."

    You can check out some more interesting material about Munny here. My point being, AD is an important part of our defense vintage 2006. The 2007 vintage will not be the same, but in Baltimore we always seem to have a good bottle.
    Festivus

    His definitions and arguments were so clear in his own mind that he was unable to understand how any reasonable person could honestly differ with him.




  8. #38

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Quote Originally Posted by purplepoe View Post
    If someone who's more familiar with the cap would chime in, what's the cap hit if the Ravens deal Ray Lewis to a team this offseason.
    PP
    From B-more Ravor's post, in x's and o's.

    Ray Lewis:

    2007 cap number: $9.429M
    Unaccounted for bonus shares that will accelerate: $5.858M

    2007 cap savings if released/retires: $3.571M

    So theoretically it helps a little, coupled with(from same post):
    Jamal Lewis:

    2007 Cap number: $11.667M
    Unaccounted for bonus shares that will accelerate: $3.333M

    2007 Cap savings if/when released: $8.334M

    Vincent:

    2007 cap number: $2.017M
    Unaccounted for bonus shares that will accelerate: $417K

    2007 cap savings if released/retires: $1.6M

    And potentially a little more from JO or Flynn... Jo doesn't even save a Million unless he retires post June 1st. then:
    Ogden:

    2007 cap number: $8.791M
    Unaccounted for bonus shares that will accelerate: $8.043M

    2007 cap savings if released/retires: $748K

    Post-June 1st release:

    2007 savings: $6.11M
    2008 cap charge: $5.361M

    Thanks Ravor....
    So I assume it's possible. But...

    Then Who goes to MLB? Is Mike smith ready? Doubt it, more of a drop=off then Cody or Johnson would be, and much more of a drop=off then Suggs would be at SAM. Move Scott inside, ok Works, who plays Will? We could draft Patrick Willis in the first, but what if he doesn't last?

    My point is we have better current roster depth at SAM OLB then either other LB spot and we should be able to produce a starting quality player, at least from last year's roster(to include JJ). I agree though that AD is better and younger and maybe in the september of his career not november like Ray. It would be a tough loss but sometimes it happens.




  9. #39

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post

    Then Who goes to MLB? Is Mike smith ready? Doubt it, more of a drop=off then Cody or Johnson would be, and much more of a drop=off then Suggs would be at SAM. Move Scott inside, ok Works, who plays Will? We could draft Patrick Willis in the first, but what if he doesn't last?

    My point is we have better current roster depth at SAM OLB then either other LB spot and we should be able to produce a starting quality player, at least from last year's roster(to include JJ). I agree though that AD is better and younger and maybe in the september of his career not november like Ray. It would be a tough loss but sometimes it happens.

    Good points.

    PP




  10. #40

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    remember we could alwyas play Bart Scott at MLB in an emergency...or sign some vet for cheap like Polley.




  11. #41

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensNTerps View Post
    remember we could alwyas play Bart Scott at MLB in an emergency...or sign some vet for cheap like Polley.
    I know you think Ray is overrated and overpaid, but cmon dude. He played very well last season and was a big part of the D still.

    He's not just some replaceable part.

    AD is younger and better, yes.

    It's a shame that we could possibly lose AD, but this FO isn't gonna do backflips and outlandish stuff to keep him.

    It's not as easy as just trading people to try to free up some cap space for him. He plays a position that we're already heavily invested in and on the side of the ball where we spend the most money.

    We all want AD to be a Raven for the next 5 years, but it might not happen.

    PP




  12. #42

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    I'm not saying that Ray Lewis SUCKS. But he had a good year, not a dominant year, and hasn't had a dominant year in 4 seasons or so, but is still the highest paid MLB in football.

    Ask yourself this: Did Ray Lewis do THAT much more (if any) than guys like London Fletcher, Al Wilson, or hell...even Demeco Ryans. At least did he do enough better to warrant the drastic difference in salary that he commands?

    This much is not debatable, IMO...Ray is DRASTICALLY over paid, and because of that we are going to (potentially) lose the guy, who, in my OPINION, is far and away the best player on defense? And the stuff about how he makes other players better is dramatically over played. To be honest he was a huge part in alienating the locker room during the 2005 season. His public image may be that of a wild dog and leader, but over the course of the last 3 seasons he seems to be increasingly more about himself and himself only. Even if he does make "the players around him" better, is he worth that much more money than any other MLB in the league??

    I know you don't like comparing it to the colts, but let's put it this way: Not comparing the players as the defensive counterparts or anything like that, but just in terms of importance...would you pay Edge James MORE than Peyton Manning?

    Would you be happy if because James was the highest paid RB in the league, you weren't able to re-sign Peyton when his contract ran out?

    That is similar to how I feel this situation is.

    Ray is an above average to good middle linebacker. Thomas is the most versatile and dangerous defensive player in the league...in my opinion.

    Yet the former's overinflated salary is a large part of us not re-signing the latter.

    Seems unfair.




  13. #43

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensNTerps View Post
    I'm not saying that Ray Lewis SUCKS. But he had a good year, not a dominant year, and hasn't had a dominant year in 4 seasons or so, but is still the highest paid MLB in football.

    Ask yourself this: Did Ray Lewis do THAT much more (if any) than guys like London Fletcher, Al Wilson, or hell...even Demeco Ryans. At least did he do enough better to warrant the drastic difference in salary that he commands?

    This much is not debatable, IMO...Ray is DRASTICALLY over paid, and because of that we are going to (potentially) lose the guy, who, in my OPINION, is far and away the best player on defense? And the stuff about how he makes other players better is dramatically over played. To be honest he was a huge part in alienating the locker room during the 2005 season. His public image may be that of a wild dog and leader, but over the course of the last 3 seasons he seems to be increasingly more about himself and himself only. Even if he does make "the players around him" better, is he worth that much more money than any other MLB in the league??

    I know you don't like comparing it to the colts, but let's put it this way: Not comparing the players as the defensive counterparts or anything like that, but just in terms of importance...would you pay Edge James MORE than Peyton Manning?

    Would you be happy if because James was the highest paid RB in the league, you weren't able to re-sign Peyton when his contract ran out?

    That is similar to how I feel this situation is.

    Ray is an above average to good middle linebacker. Thomas is the most versatile and dangerous defensive player in the league...in my opinion.

    Yet the former's overinflated salary is a large part of us not re-signing the latter.

    Seems unfair.

    Unfair? The Ravens signed Ray to the deal. You can't go around looking for "fairness" in the NFL.

    Look, Rolle's salary and cap number is huge. Why aren't you wanting to move him? He had a very average to below average year, wouldn't you say?

    There are others on this team that you could say are "overpaid", yet you want to get rid of Ray? Yea, let's just sign Tommy Polley.

    If the Ravens can sign AD, they most certainly will. It's just the reality of the NFL these days that you lose players that you want to keep.

    When have you ever seen a team trade a guy to keep another? It just doesn't happen because it's a very difficult thing to do.

    You say it's not debateable that Ray is overpaid, yet you said it's your opinion. Ray is the leader of this D. The players still say it and the coaches still say it. You don't like the guy and it's apparent. That's fine. But he's not getting dealt.

    PP




  14. #44

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    The difference- linebackers are consistently the deepest part of our roster, year in and year out. Behind Samari Rolle, we have no one worth a damn. We are paying a premium on him so we don't have to start a guy like Oglesby.

    Plus, in general, cornerbacks are more expensive than middle linebackers.

    It's not that I don't LIKE ray, per se, but just that I see him as a barrier to keeping our better players around and it isn't worth it anymore.




  15. #45

    Re: To Those Concerned With Losing AD

    Probably worth its own thread, but Donnie Edwards was just on ESPN News and totally TRASHED A.J. Smith and maintained that there is literally a 0% chance that he is a Charger next year...

    Now THIS is an intriguing guy to bring in IF we do lose AD (or, more preferably to me, deal Ray). He would replace some of that veteran leadership, and is one hell of a player, despite being old.




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